- Joined
- Dec 11, 2006
- Messages
- 1,659
All right boys……this is what you have been waiting for. It is going to take you awhile to read. So grab a bowl of popcorn, a few beers and pull up a seat!!!!
Intro
I am sure that if you are reading this now, that you have at least somewhat kept up with the threads on the topic.
Pitdog came up with the idea of having a camp knife challenge, and everyone went nuts for it. The whole project has just snowballed from there. I suggested a few tasks to put the knives through, and asked for further input. I did not get any. But I did think of one or two additional things to do.
Also, I had intended on doing things that I purposely did not want to tell anyone. I did not want any makers tailoring their knives to my specific criteria, and rather wanted to evaluate them in the state that any member here would receive one, if they purchased one.
In my opinion, this is also a chance for the makers to showcase their work and show off their designs. So, the first thing I intend to do, before the knife even gets used, is to look at the construction detail, fit and finish, and then document what I consider to be some key measurements in the design.
After that, again before getting into real use, I wanted to have a “baseline” for how sharp each knife is as shipped. The only way I can conceive doing that objectively was to rig up a fixture, holding string, attached to a light weight scale. The actual measurement taken may not really mean anything, but it will indeed give you a reference of how they compare to other entries. More of a “relative” measurement than an “absolute” one.
Thank You!
I would like to just take a moment to thank all the makers involved. To many, I am sure I am a pretty unknown quantity. It takes a lot of guts to step up and say “Sure, I will let this guy say whatever he wants about my knife!” Especially since everyone involved knows that I was planning on stating good and bad. Not just highlighting the good stuff, and neglecting the not so good stuff, which seems to be a common occurrence in reviews.
My intention was to just tell what I see. I do not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I hope it is not taken that way. If think there is merit in something I said that is not positive, great! Maybe make a tweak. If you think I am full of crap…..you could very well be right! : ) Take my comments for what they are.
Sorry to ramble. My point is, thank you all for stepping up and be willing to be evaluated. That certainly says a lot about you, and the confidence you have in your knives. These are all great knives, and it was a pleasure to see them all in the same place.
Test Style
I am sure there are folks that are going to be a bit disappointed in the extent to which I was actually able to take the testing. Switching between 11 knives, and trying to get a good feel for each was much more time consuming and difficult than I ever imagined.
A lot of makers were also concerned about the “condition” their knife would be after the end of test. I like my tests to be as “real world” as possible. I am not into chopping man made objects, or testing to failure. There are other guys out there that are really good at that. I simply wanted to see how these perform at tasks that I (and hopefully the rest of you) would do with them on regular basis. Nothing was really extravagant or out there in terms of torture.
Test Method
I am sure there are a few folks that are wondering if a test like this is even valid. I mean, we have a bunch of knives being asked to cover a very wide range of tasks. Then, they are being evaluated by ONE person! I admit, there can be a lot of subjectivity into every test, and I am going to try my best to minimize that. In order to do that, I plan to do the following:
I will have one section on my opinion. A lot of ergos, balance and “feel” is going to be highly opinionated. I plan to give that : ) but everyone has to realize that my opinion is not necessarily theirs. The best you can use it for is to know how aligned your tastes are with mine (or not) and draw your own conclusions. I will get the opinion out of my system, and hopefully be objective from there : )
If at all possible, I want to provide data on the knife that will back up its performance, or data during the test itself. That will only be possible in a few cases, so in general I just plan to comment on performance without drawing any conclusions. Again, I just want to try and state facts.
Finally, I know that a camp knife is a highly personal choice. The one I select might lean toward better performance in kitchen duties while one you want may lean towards better chopping performance. It is unlikely that one design will do all so stellar that I don’t want multiple knives : )
So, I intend to rate each knife individually against the given task. The rating will be a 1 to 10 type of deal. At the end of each section, I will summarize the individual knife performance for you. And the end of ALL the testing, I will add up the totals from each section, and see what the grand total is for each knife. It is quite possible that I could end up with an eleven way tie!
The reason I like this testing method is that it can allow each individual reader to tailor the results to their liking. For example, I will have a 1 to 10 rating on “Fit and Finish.” If that is not at all important to you, you can drop that entire section from the score, and re-total it yourself! It is also possible to take the final scores and introduce a “weighting factor” to give a different result. I will explain that at the end. But, if you rate “chopping” as a higher priority than “food prep” you can easily manipulate the numbers based on your own individual priority. Hopefully, that will make sense later.
In the end, I am relying on an educated reader. To take the information I am providing, understand their own needs and “wants” and make a selection based on that. Not necessarily based on my opinion or conclusion.
Order of Tests
Before beginning, I already come to the conclusion that I will not sharpen any knives. There are too many different grind styles, angles, opinions on finishes, etc. Instead, I intend to do the tests in order such that the finer tasks are done first (when the knife is sharpest) and continue on down the line with the more abusive tests toward the end. It is the best solution I could come up with.
Enough jabbering……let’s begin!
Entry Showcase
To keep things simple, I keep referring to the knives in the same order over and over again.
In this section, I took a picture of each knife and detail the information that the maker gave to me. These are not my words. I have just posted their info here.
The following are the entries I received:
Koyote
Alaskan. (model name)
Camp knife challenge entry
Christof Harper
www.koyoteknives.com
christof@koyoteknives.com
sietchtabr@gmail.com
Sierra Student (sheaths)
OAL 12.25
Blade 7
thickness, nominally .095 (3/32)
2 inches broad at top of thumbramp
15N20 steel, differentially tempered.
handle is tan canvas micarta, flared (peened) lanyard tubing pins with
slow set epoxy on the scales.
"convex scandi" grind.
notes: pinch grip and forward choked grip capabilities designed in for
fine work, good drop edge for chopping and camp kitchen. "micro
spearpoint" tip is good for drilling fireboards and plenty strong.
I'm especially curious how it does with finer bushcraft tasks. I often
use a much smaller drop edge for heavy carving technique situations,
but it should work out with the right grips.
Strop away however you want. Sharpening shouldn't be a problem.
Don't forget to use thread locker (nail polish in a pinch) on the
chicago screws when you find a setup you like for carry.
I have sometimes used recycled bandsaw- I like doing so, but most of
my blades from 15N20 come from new stock I get through Kelly Cupples.
I'm really focussed on simplicity in design- this is almost a "busy"
knife for me for a field blade. The simpler and more comfortable the
knife is in multiple grips, the better off the user is
Noshtero
Here's what I can say about it.
5 1/2" blade
10 1/2" overall
3/16" 01 heat treated and tempered by yours truly
Mirror polished edge
Poisonwood handle with aluminum pins and lanyard tube
Black leather sheath with braided stitching
This camp knife is the 6th knife I've made. I sold my very first knife two weeks ago out of my pass-around. That was the 5th knife I'd made. So I guess I'm sort of "in business" now.
My process is very simple. I make these out of my garage. I basically had Stomper pick out all my equipment. He even let me have his old charcoal forge. I haven't really developed any trade secrets yet.
If it's going to look really weird because others have written pages out their knife, then let me know and I can embellish it. I guess by nature I have a hard time talking up myself. I would like to highlight that this is my sixth knife. This is probably Koster's 6000th! As far as price? I'm wishy washy on that. I don't personally feel my knives are up to the standards that the other makers set yet, so I'd have a hard time charging what they charge. For a 5 1/2" blade like that.. I don't know. $120ish? Maybe a little less. I'd actually be really curious what you think I should charge for one like that.
Bruce Culberson
Like most other knife makers and knife enthusiast I loved knives ever since I was young. My first knife was a single blade slip joint that my dad bought for me at the local corner store. It had a picture of an RCMP officer riding a horse on one of the scales. I have also always had a love for the outdoors – camping, fishing, hunting, and hiking. I like doing things myself such as reloading rifle ammunition, fletching arrows & cutting them to length, tying my own fishing flies, glass bedding rifles, etc. So it was only a matter of time until I wanted to make my own knife. I started with putting handles on kit knives and I was hooked and wanted to make my own blades. My father is a carpenter and I think that is why I like wood handles so much.
I have made mostly hunting knives and smaller neck/EDC knives. This knife for this competition is actually my first camp knife and only the third knife I’ve made with a blade over 5”! I have been making knives for just under two years, and just started selling in April of 2009. My interpretation of a camp knife is that it is the SUV of knives – meant to handle some big jobs like chopping & batoning wood, but also nimble enough for finer work like field dressing game and fish. The knife I built has a thick handle so that it doesn’t create hot spots when doing heavy work. The balance point is right on the index finger – about 1/8” ahead of the forward pin. This makes the knife more lively in your hand for the finer cutting tasks.
I was thinking of making an 8-9" blade at first, then decide to go with 7". The whole blade was hardened, then after double tempering the edge was placed in a pan of water and I used a propane tourch to draw the spine back to blue for a spring temper. This leaves the edge hard but softens the spine making it stronger for tasks such as chopping and batoning. I went with a drop point blade since that design seems to do a lot of things well for me. The spine was left square for striking firesteels (I should have put a loop on the sheath and included a firesteel). The combination of a flat grind with a convex edge seem to slice well and stand up to heavier chores. The blade main bevel has a 95% flat grind finished off with a very slight convex. The edge is convex.
Here are the specs:
Blade length tip to scales: 7”
Blade width: 1 ¼”
Handle length: 5”
Grind: full flat with a secondary convex edge
Steel: O1 ground from 3/16” stock
Handle material: Bocote with red liners
Pins & thong tube: brass
The wood handle has several coats of tung oil topped off with bee’s wax. The blade was hand sanded to 320 grit for a working finish. Retail $185.
To Be Continued.....
Intro
I am sure that if you are reading this now, that you have at least somewhat kept up with the threads on the topic.
Pitdog came up with the idea of having a camp knife challenge, and everyone went nuts for it. The whole project has just snowballed from there. I suggested a few tasks to put the knives through, and asked for further input. I did not get any. But I did think of one or two additional things to do.
Also, I had intended on doing things that I purposely did not want to tell anyone. I did not want any makers tailoring their knives to my specific criteria, and rather wanted to evaluate them in the state that any member here would receive one, if they purchased one.
In my opinion, this is also a chance for the makers to showcase their work and show off their designs. So, the first thing I intend to do, before the knife even gets used, is to look at the construction detail, fit and finish, and then document what I consider to be some key measurements in the design.
After that, again before getting into real use, I wanted to have a “baseline” for how sharp each knife is as shipped. The only way I can conceive doing that objectively was to rig up a fixture, holding string, attached to a light weight scale. The actual measurement taken may not really mean anything, but it will indeed give you a reference of how they compare to other entries. More of a “relative” measurement than an “absolute” one.
Thank You!
I would like to just take a moment to thank all the makers involved. To many, I am sure I am a pretty unknown quantity. It takes a lot of guts to step up and say “Sure, I will let this guy say whatever he wants about my knife!” Especially since everyone involved knows that I was planning on stating good and bad. Not just highlighting the good stuff, and neglecting the not so good stuff, which seems to be a common occurrence in reviews.
My intention was to just tell what I see. I do not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I hope it is not taken that way. If think there is merit in something I said that is not positive, great! Maybe make a tweak. If you think I am full of crap…..you could very well be right! : ) Take my comments for what they are.
Sorry to ramble. My point is, thank you all for stepping up and be willing to be evaluated. That certainly says a lot about you, and the confidence you have in your knives. These are all great knives, and it was a pleasure to see them all in the same place.
Test Style
I am sure there are folks that are going to be a bit disappointed in the extent to which I was actually able to take the testing. Switching between 11 knives, and trying to get a good feel for each was much more time consuming and difficult than I ever imagined.
A lot of makers were also concerned about the “condition” their knife would be after the end of test. I like my tests to be as “real world” as possible. I am not into chopping man made objects, or testing to failure. There are other guys out there that are really good at that. I simply wanted to see how these perform at tasks that I (and hopefully the rest of you) would do with them on regular basis. Nothing was really extravagant or out there in terms of torture.
Test Method
I am sure there are a few folks that are wondering if a test like this is even valid. I mean, we have a bunch of knives being asked to cover a very wide range of tasks. Then, they are being evaluated by ONE person! I admit, there can be a lot of subjectivity into every test, and I am going to try my best to minimize that. In order to do that, I plan to do the following:
I will have one section on my opinion. A lot of ergos, balance and “feel” is going to be highly opinionated. I plan to give that : ) but everyone has to realize that my opinion is not necessarily theirs. The best you can use it for is to know how aligned your tastes are with mine (or not) and draw your own conclusions. I will get the opinion out of my system, and hopefully be objective from there : )
If at all possible, I want to provide data on the knife that will back up its performance, or data during the test itself. That will only be possible in a few cases, so in general I just plan to comment on performance without drawing any conclusions. Again, I just want to try and state facts.
Finally, I know that a camp knife is a highly personal choice. The one I select might lean toward better performance in kitchen duties while one you want may lean towards better chopping performance. It is unlikely that one design will do all so stellar that I don’t want multiple knives : )
So, I intend to rate each knife individually against the given task. The rating will be a 1 to 10 type of deal. At the end of each section, I will summarize the individual knife performance for you. And the end of ALL the testing, I will add up the totals from each section, and see what the grand total is for each knife. It is quite possible that I could end up with an eleven way tie!
The reason I like this testing method is that it can allow each individual reader to tailor the results to their liking. For example, I will have a 1 to 10 rating on “Fit and Finish.” If that is not at all important to you, you can drop that entire section from the score, and re-total it yourself! It is also possible to take the final scores and introduce a “weighting factor” to give a different result. I will explain that at the end. But, if you rate “chopping” as a higher priority than “food prep” you can easily manipulate the numbers based on your own individual priority. Hopefully, that will make sense later.
In the end, I am relying on an educated reader. To take the information I am providing, understand their own needs and “wants” and make a selection based on that. Not necessarily based on my opinion or conclusion.
Order of Tests
Before beginning, I already come to the conclusion that I will not sharpen any knives. There are too many different grind styles, angles, opinions on finishes, etc. Instead, I intend to do the tests in order such that the finer tasks are done first (when the knife is sharpest) and continue on down the line with the more abusive tests toward the end. It is the best solution I could come up with.
Enough jabbering……let’s begin!
Entry Showcase
To keep things simple, I keep referring to the knives in the same order over and over again.
In this section, I took a picture of each knife and detail the information that the maker gave to me. These are not my words. I have just posted their info here.
The following are the entries I received:
Koyote
Alaskan. (model name)
Camp knife challenge entry
Christof Harper
www.koyoteknives.com
christof@koyoteknives.com
sietchtabr@gmail.com
Sierra Student (sheaths)
OAL 12.25
Blade 7
thickness, nominally .095 (3/32)
2 inches broad at top of thumbramp
15N20 steel, differentially tempered.
handle is tan canvas micarta, flared (peened) lanyard tubing pins with
slow set epoxy on the scales.
"convex scandi" grind.
notes: pinch grip and forward choked grip capabilities designed in for
fine work, good drop edge for chopping and camp kitchen. "micro
spearpoint" tip is good for drilling fireboards and plenty strong.
I'm especially curious how it does with finer bushcraft tasks. I often
use a much smaller drop edge for heavy carving technique situations,
but it should work out with the right grips.
Strop away however you want. Sharpening shouldn't be a problem.
Don't forget to use thread locker (nail polish in a pinch) on the
chicago screws when you find a setup you like for carry.
I have sometimes used recycled bandsaw- I like doing so, but most of
my blades from 15N20 come from new stock I get through Kelly Cupples.
I'm really focussed on simplicity in design- this is almost a "busy"
knife for me for a field blade. The simpler and more comfortable the
knife is in multiple grips, the better off the user is
Noshtero
Here's what I can say about it.
5 1/2" blade
10 1/2" overall
3/16" 01 heat treated and tempered by yours truly
Mirror polished edge
Poisonwood handle with aluminum pins and lanyard tube
Black leather sheath with braided stitching
This camp knife is the 6th knife I've made. I sold my very first knife two weeks ago out of my pass-around. That was the 5th knife I'd made. So I guess I'm sort of "in business" now.
My process is very simple. I make these out of my garage. I basically had Stomper pick out all my equipment. He even let me have his old charcoal forge. I haven't really developed any trade secrets yet.
If it's going to look really weird because others have written pages out their knife, then let me know and I can embellish it. I guess by nature I have a hard time talking up myself. I would like to highlight that this is my sixth knife. This is probably Koster's 6000th! As far as price? I'm wishy washy on that. I don't personally feel my knives are up to the standards that the other makers set yet, so I'd have a hard time charging what they charge. For a 5 1/2" blade like that.. I don't know. $120ish? Maybe a little less. I'd actually be really curious what you think I should charge for one like that.
Bruce Culberson
Like most other knife makers and knife enthusiast I loved knives ever since I was young. My first knife was a single blade slip joint that my dad bought for me at the local corner store. It had a picture of an RCMP officer riding a horse on one of the scales. I have also always had a love for the outdoors – camping, fishing, hunting, and hiking. I like doing things myself such as reloading rifle ammunition, fletching arrows & cutting them to length, tying my own fishing flies, glass bedding rifles, etc. So it was only a matter of time until I wanted to make my own knife. I started with putting handles on kit knives and I was hooked and wanted to make my own blades. My father is a carpenter and I think that is why I like wood handles so much.
I have made mostly hunting knives and smaller neck/EDC knives. This knife for this competition is actually my first camp knife and only the third knife I’ve made with a blade over 5”! I have been making knives for just under two years, and just started selling in April of 2009. My interpretation of a camp knife is that it is the SUV of knives – meant to handle some big jobs like chopping & batoning wood, but also nimble enough for finer work like field dressing game and fish. The knife I built has a thick handle so that it doesn’t create hot spots when doing heavy work. The balance point is right on the index finger – about 1/8” ahead of the forward pin. This makes the knife more lively in your hand for the finer cutting tasks.
I was thinking of making an 8-9" blade at first, then decide to go with 7". The whole blade was hardened, then after double tempering the edge was placed in a pan of water and I used a propane tourch to draw the spine back to blue for a spring temper. This leaves the edge hard but softens the spine making it stronger for tasks such as chopping and batoning. I went with a drop point blade since that design seems to do a lot of things well for me. The spine was left square for striking firesteels (I should have put a loop on the sheath and included a firesteel). The combination of a flat grind with a convex edge seem to slice well and stand up to heavier chores. The blade main bevel has a 95% flat grind finished off with a very slight convex. The edge is convex.
Here are the specs:
Blade length tip to scales: 7”
Blade width: 1 ¼”
Handle length: 5”
Grind: full flat with a secondary convex edge
Steel: O1 ground from 3/16” stock
Handle material: Bocote with red liners
Pins & thong tube: brass
The wood handle has several coats of tung oil topped off with bee’s wax. The blade was hand sanded to 320 grit for a working finish. Retail $185.
To Be Continued.....
Last edited:
