Can someone explain intended use of bigger titanium sticks?

J

Joe Talmadge

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
4,842
Hi,

I was wondering what the intended defensive uses were for the defensive sticks. Well, I can figure the koppo and smaller ban bog sticks out okay -- as a kubotan, yawara, and fistload (right?).

But those 12" sticks don't seem long enough to use as an escrima-stick type impact weapon, the extra length isn't needed for yawara-type uses. I can't figure 'em out!
Any help in clearing things up for me is appreciated.

The best I could come up with for the wang bo stick with the lanyard was to use has half a nuchuku, perhaps, but I'm dubious of this. But there's a wang bo stick pictured with no lanyard, so that can't be its exclusive design goal.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 19 August 1999).]
 
You can use them for all sorts of Close quarters techniques. You can use the butt end, or the punyo. Hitting with that area above your grip is particularly effective. Imagine hitting someone with a kali stick in a punching motion with the middle part of the stick right above the grip.

Jason
 
This is where I show my lack of formal training. It's a big stick... beat 'em with it! Sorry, like the Dog Brothers say the old cave man technique still works pretty well.
 
The double tapered point of the Wang Bo is sharp enough to pierce skin. The stick is heavy enough to cave in a skull, especially when swung by the lanyard. Holding it with the cord wrapped around your thumb, you can give extremely powerful strikes like how Michael Enchanis does is his classic book, Stick Fighting for Combat. There's a small section devoted to a similar stick much like the Ban Bog. I guess by letting the stick slide out of your hand as you hit, the power generated is enough to break bones, cause of the lack of vibration. I'm really messing up the explanation; just read the book. Ohara Publications should be able to get it for you. I found mine at Barnes and Noble.
 
coyote --

With a 12" stick? You've lost most all the distance advantages you get with most impact weapons, and most of the torque where the power came from. I'm a little sceptical of this particular approach. On the other hand, saps were used effectively for a long time. Does the stick have anywhere near the blunt force hitting power of a sap? I think part of the reason the sap hit so hard is that it was flexible and would whip around.

Joe
 
Although a caveman strike is possible and still effective, you can use the sticks for more short power that comes from the twisting of the hips and less from swing of the arms.

Jason
 
You can also use the sticks for limb control/trapping/breaking. One other real nasty maneuver: Jig the double tapered point into the radial nerve & then scrape all the way down to the wrist... can you say MASSIVE tissue damage & nerve trauma? Sorry for the nasty descriptive, but that's real life.

------------------
Attila
 
I promise this will be almost impossible for anyone to decipher! It is incredibly difficult to convey a fluid movement in such a limited format.

Joe,

You are in the FMA's, you know the various weapons disarms where the attacker's weapon is hotfired, edge or point, right back at the attcker...not as a technique, you don't plan on it happening, you shoot for this and if it works, great! Maybe it will just make them flinch and hunch over like a culture when they see their own weapon being fired at them...also effective...

The Koppo and Ban Bog Sticks are very effective as Pocket/Palm Type Sticks, as the Yawara and Kubotan are...however, there is a whole other family of locks used in the Japanese Arts that use two hands on the stick, that require a longer stick to be effective and some of these find the longer stick, like the Wang Bo, in the forward or reverse grips. They involve reaching under the attacker's wrist with your off hand with the stick used above the wrist, you reach under or over depending on orientation of the stick to the wrist, and you clamp down, roll and CRUNCH, as you take a step back or to the side and smash them into the ground...or perhaps you will let them down gently depending on the severity of the threat.

On the subject of firing the Attacker's weapon back at him, if you are locking someone and they fight the pain and try to draw a weapon, you have a 12" long, pointed piece of titanium that you then just fire at the attacker to end it. There are many ways to use these things, they offer a different way of thinking about an impact weapon.

Also, although a point can be lethal, it can be a pain compliance tool as well, especially when you dig into an area that is bony with it.

Just some random thoughts...keep going!
 
Thanks Don! That helps

I actually was asking more specifically about the rounded-point 12" sticks. The ones with the sharpened points, I can figure out all kinds of nasty things to do with them, but I figured they're really questionable, legal-wise, at least here in CA.
 
Don showed me a lock where you put the 12" stick around someone's arm for example and holding the stick with your fingers against their arm you clamp down with your thunbs. This hurts a lost with minimal pressure!

I also found a Japanese book which has a whole series of locks that require a twelve inch stick. Most of them are fairly intuitive but can really tie up and control and opponent.

Jason
 
are you referring to the "stick fighting techniques" book by Masaaki Hatsumi?

some pretty brutal stuff in there. a good book to have anyway...
 
Tom,

That is a great book! I actually gave that to James as a gift a few months ago. It is a wealth of information and it is one of the most effective arts (that art outlined) when it comes to the 3' Hanbo, The Tessen or a Koppo Stick.

Find someone in the Bujinkan to show you the stuff hands-on OR, if no one is available, use the "map" approach. When you read a map, you imagine you are on it, that way you can figure out right and left turns...same thing with books trying to convey movement in a still photography medium.

Joe,

Even the rounded tip sticks will offer a very punishing ordeal to the attacker. Another thing we use these type of intermediate length sticks for is, once you close, and you strike to the limbs, etc., you can slip a stick of this size between the arm and ribcage as you go by and squeeze, you can throw them or whatever after that...very neat stuff and I love making the Fillipino stuff flow with the Japanese Arts...it is a wonderful thing. Same thing with the knife arts from both countries, the Bujinkan and I would assume the Jinenkan as well, have a very unique take on the knife in combat and I would not call anything superior to the FMA's because I think they are the epitome of the blade arts (that is MY opinion alone), however, there are things in Japanese Tantojutsu that will save you, defending yourself from grappling attacks or attacks while you are seated IMMEDIATELY jump into my mind.

Take what works for you and add or delete as you feel necessary!
 
Joe, BTW, the reason a sap is so effective for its size is that it is filled with loose lead poweder or shot. So almost all the energy and momentum gets transferred on impact - very little recoil coupled with high mass.

Canuck
 
Just as an interesting sidenote, a small tutorial on Saps, otherwise known as "Blackjacks." I have heard them called Slapjacks and all sorts of colorful names.

There are 3 basic "loads" in a lead filled sap;

1. Lead powder
2. Lead shot
3. Lead clay, molded

There are 4 basic Blackjacks;

1. Round body with a flat or coiled spring in the handle for increased "whip."
2. Flat body with a flat or coiled spring in the handle for increased "whip."
3. Round body without spring in handle.
4. Flat body without spring in the handle.

There are 2 basic exteriors;

1. Plain
2. Basketweave

The most lethal type of blackjack is a round body with coil spring in handle.

The safest type of blackjack that still offers knockout capability is the flat sap with lead shot and no spring in the shank.

Round 'Jacks concentrate force whereas the flat type spread the force out. Round saps can actually break bones easily. The introduction of a spring increases the possibility of this.

Basketweaved leather increases the severity of damage done to the skin, to a greater degree than a regular finished leather sap will.

Just for your information, there is a lot of misinformation about the now almost antiquated Blackjack. I personally...have always liked them and always will. I believe they are very effective in close quarters and are about as illegal in most areas as they are effective! I used to carry one all the time while working...I have seen people hit with them.

 
i have one of the cheap flat ones; would love one of the round ones with a coil spring. have never found anyone who carries them. you can find the cheapies in army/navy stores; where can you find the heavier round ones?
 
Thank you again Don for your skilled insite on the titanium sticks.
The Saps and weighted Slaps are certinly effective.
These stick designs have not only the Japanese and Filipino martial artist in mind but the average joe who simple wants to provide a simple form of defense against a knife or other agressive type of attacks as well.
With titanium being one third the weight of steel,.. yet having all the hard / solid qualities of steel provides speed, (speed is power), yet not overly heavy preventing possible hyperextention of the wrist when sending the stick from one direction, then abruptly stopping its motion and sending it into the opposite direction.
The braided lanyard provides a stiffer loop for the thumb that adds to its speed of presentation and ofcourse its valuable extended reach.
Although standard sizes are made.. we do custom sizing per request.
There is an accomidating length for everyone's comfort zone.
We've discovered that the use of our removable Finger Pinch CordTM attached to any of the thumb loop cords provides an additional diamention of accuasition and deployment from a completely concealed position, with the Finger Pinch Cord looking like a keychain fob. Now by gripping the Finger Pinch Cord as close as posible to your pants line (thumb pointing into the waistline direction) then once pulled, exposing the braided thumb cord... dive your thumb into the braided loop. Or ofcourse you could just hang onto the Finger Pinch Cord itself for even greater extention.

Were also in final prototype stage of the
V-Stick PouchTM. This pouch is specifically designed for the Spinal Backup 3TM or equiv. harness / bag or horizontal belt carry. It provides complete concealment of the stick being carried.
It has a unique entrance for ease of resheathing the stick, and Velcro topside for additional side by side blade or other tool attachment.
Versitality is always the key!



------------------
James

JSP Blade Rigger
 
KEL,

About the only place to find a really nice Blackjack is from a police supply store. A JayPee or Bucheimer (I think they are now out of business???) are good 'Jacks. Like I said though, they are an Instant Bust in most places...So, purchase, possess and carry at your own risk.

James,

You are the Master of this stuff...you explain every, tiny nuance of your own product and it is nice to see you on here adding "The Word" from BladeRigger!

I guess I will be needing a Pouch for this stick when you get one produced...so many products and so little time...
 
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