Carbon steel vs. stainless?

H

HM

Joined
Dec 11, 1999
Messages
641
To give a new spin to an old thread on the general forum, I would like to ask people about their KNIFE STEEL preference FOR SURVIVAL/WILDERNESS use.

Joe Talmadge's, and other's (sorry, I only remember him right now) posts suggest that a stainless steal might be a very reasonable trade off in any corrosive environment. Especially when one can not pay too much attention to appropriate knife maintenance.

I know there are a lot of carbon steel advocates and that can be a great steel for the buck, however I would like all of us to consider the potential environmental impact on the knife in a survival situation.

Thanks for all responses,

HM

 
For a small blade that will see a lot of use, I think stainless or Talonite is a good choice.

But for a larger blade, where strength is paramount, carbon with a bluing or coating is my choice.

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Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Due to the ease of sharpening alone, I would have to stick with carbons. I've found all the stainless knives I've owned were too difficult to sharpen with primitive or simple tools. In a survival situation, I could find myself only with a stone as a sharpening tool and I want a knife that can be sharpened accordingly!



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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com


 
I'd also choose stainless (or a material that doesn't exactly corrode such as talonite) as well. Having to "baby" a carbon steel knife in a "survival situation" is not something I would consider a high priority. If you don't have something like tuf-cloth or some other anti-rust substance on you, taking care of a carbon steel blade is more of an annoyance, if not a liability.
 
Wilderness use: Whatever you like most and is most suitable for what you plan on doing. My Sissipuukko M.95 works well, but yes, it will rust in the winter unless taken care of.

Survival: As I see it, that might be the knife you retain after you've lost lots of other stuff, so in many environments stainless would be more practical.

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Urban Fredriksson
www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/

"Smooth and serrated blades cut in two entirely different fashions."
- The Teeth of the Tyrannosaurs, Scientific American, Sep 1999
 
I prefer a carbon steel blade in the mid to low 50s on the rockwell scale. I give up a bit of edgeholding with the softer blade but gain the ability to sharpen with a variety of mediums including stones and files.

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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
I've had carbon steel with me in all of my journeys, mountains, jungles, deserts shorelines, hot and cold and I've never had a rust problem. If you use the blade it stays clean. Most stuff you cut, coats the blade anyway.

Pine resins, animal fats, even many legumes etc all contain compounts that retard corrosion. If you see some rust, rub the area with dirt. I carry a Tuf Cloth. I used to carry a Silicone wax to defog my glasses on climbs etc. That worked great on the steel as well as does chapstick, sunscreen etc.etc.

Unless it is for underwater use or as a pocket knife... I don't carry stainless.

Ron

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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
Like Doc Ron said, carry a Tuf-Cloth. I also consider a diamond dust sharpener a must carry tool.

There may not be as much of a difference between high carbon and stainless steel in actual use. High carbon steel forms the familiar surface oxidation, and this is easily removed with sand or any other handy abrasive, leaving the underlying metal intact. Stainless, however, tends to form pits; these theoretically at least, can go deep enough to adversely affect the blade; further, the pits cannot be removed unless you remove the metal down to the level of the bottom of the pit.

Frankly, I prefer Talonite (r). Tough, edge lasts a long time, and peculiarly enough, it is easy to resharpen. Short of a strong mineral acid, it absolutely does not corrode.

Just my opinion, of course. Walt
 
I've decided on a stainless steel knife (fallkniven F1 with VG10 stainless steel) for most cases since it is quite possible that I will be going for a swim before reaching the coast.
 
My vote would be for stainless. Probably 440C.

My Swiss Army Knives are all easy to sharpen although I've never tried sharpening one with a smooth rock. I used to have problems sharpening stainless until I discovered crock sticks back in the 70s. Case SS used to give me fits. I could get the knives pretty sharp but not shaving sharp. With crock sticks (and now my Spydie Sharpmaker) no problemo.

Under survival conditions, I don't think shaving sharp is a real issue is it?

Steven Dick has a short discussion on stainless vs carbon in the March 2000 issue of Tactical Knives. The issue he raises is which carbon and which stainless steel do you compare? For instance, suppose the carbon steel is M2 or D2? How easy would that be to hone with a smooth rock from a creek bottom?

And of course there is the proverbial heat treat. This will have a major affect on every blade in terms of ease of sharpening and the ability to hold an edge, regardless whether it's carbon or stainless.

So I'll buck the trend and go with stainless. I like my carbon knives but I'm also very fond of my stainless blades. And under survival conditions it seems high corrosion resistance would be a plus, especially if I forgot and left my Tuff Cloth at home.
smile.gif
Actually, I think the old timey woodsmen allowed their carbon knives to oxidize a bit and take on a kind of bluish color, making them somewhat resistant to further rusting.



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Hoodoo

There's no fool like an old fool. You just can't beat experience.
D.O. Flynn
 
I have gone back and forth a few times.

I have finally went with carbon for ease of resharpening and lateral flexability. Stainless is hard to sharpen without an india or diamond on you.
carbon comes back fast with little effort. I have never had a rust problem in rainy seattle.I think ron's post about animal fat would cover and chance of rust.


stainless is way overrated. I don't have any experience with talonite . It sounds great though.

 
While pure carbon steels like 1095 do rust fairly fast and this will induce rapid edge loss, many tool steels while not stainless will resist corrosion much more than pure carbon steels. They are also generally stronger, tougher and more wear resistant. Busse's modifed INFI for example (#7 Basic) resisted a 5 hour soak in salt water while a 1095 blade (TOPS) suffered significant edge loss as well as getting covered in rust. After another 4 hour soak the Basic showed light spotting and significant edge loss.

-Cliff
 
I would have to say carbon...I use my larger knives for chopping, etcetera, and carbon just seems to resharpen easier than the stainless choppers I own.
 
I wouldn't worry much about whether the steel was stainless, I would just want it tough and easy to sharpen. I wouldn't want ATS-34, D2 or 440C since I find them a bother to sharpen. I don't even like 1095 all that much. I would prefer O1, A2, 5160, AUS-8, or Sandvic 12C27.
 
Go with carbon steel for any fixed blade simply because it's easy to sharpen and will hold an edge well if its taken care of. For a folder I would prefer stainless because I dont want rust to affect the lock or smooth action of a good knife.
 
Excuse me, but isn't it possible to have the best of both? The CPM steels, particularly CPM 420V, are both high carbon and corrosion resistant. I do realize that some of the Cr is tied up in carbides, but I believe that there is enough left for good corrosion resistance. At least I have never had a problem with my Kit Carson #18 in CPM 420V, and it has a bead blasted finish. Walt
 
I think it's all relative in the way you use a knife and your ability to effectively sharpen.

Many folks over-rate the need for 'perfect' sharpness and edge angle in a wilderness environment - to the point of being obsessive. Every old farmer and 3rd Worlder I've ever met couldn't tell you what the proper edge angle should be on their knife, but they do depend and use a knife as part of their very existence.

Good carbon or good stainless...I've used them both with good results.

Next point: What's the deal about worrying if your 'survival' knife has rusted somewhat? In a real survival situation, slight rusting is not going to be the difference between living and dying. If it is, then all these indigenous cultures who actually use a blade everyday to survive needs to be informed of that.

Don't get me wrong, I understand anyone wanting to keep their equipment in good shape, but to suggest that slight rust or non-perfect sharpening is all that crucial in a survival or hard wilderness situation is pure bull**it.

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
Jeff, I think you hit the nail pretty well on the head. But most of us are armchair survivalists and we like to survive "in style."
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So we split hairs 'cause it's kinda fun to talk in "ultimate" terms, even though the differences in reality may not amount to a heck of a lot or less than nothing.

No doubt the greatest survival tool is experience, skill, and training. I remember a story I read in Outdoor Life some 20 odd years ago about a professional outdoorsman and his freinds who went goose/duck hunting in Canada. His guides there were Indians, Cree I think, but I can't remember. He went up there with fancy goose/duck calls and his Belgian Browning Auto shotgun.

The natives did not use artificial calls and had POS nonbrandname single shots. In all the time he was there, he never saw them miss a single goose or duck. And that includes shots they made with his gun and his friends guns as well. They just picked up these guns and, having never shot them before, began drilling birds. No misses. Ever. In contrast, he and his friends missed quite a few.

The natives laughed at these woodsmen wannabees and even got greater laughs when they whipped out their goose calls. The natives called by natural vocalizations.

So...as much as we fantasize about survival with our high tech toys and "ultimate" survival tools, the so called primitives have survived and survived well for hundreds of thousands of years by making primitive but effective tools and using their number one tool, their wits.

Still...I'd vote for stainless.
biggrin.gif


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Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 31 December 1999).]
 
I would go with carbon because it is easier to sharpen and holds an excellent edge. However, a good stainless blade like BG-42, etc; would be about as good if properly heat-treated.
 
Walt :

Excuse me, but isn't it possible to have the best of both?
Click to expand...

No.

The CPM steels, particularly CPM 420V, are both high carbon and corrosion resistant.
Click to expand...

And are very brittle because of it.

Jeff :

Every old farmer and 3rd Worlder I've ever met couldn't tell you what the proper edge angle should be on their knife
Click to expand...

My family just one generation ago were all farmers and fishermen. While they would probably not care what the numerical value of the angle on their fillet knives and felling axes (woodstoves were the primary heat source) were, they were very particular about it was none the less. My appreciation for high performance geometry comes from them as all that mattered from a blade was function.

I learned to sharpen blades from watching my grandfather (farmer, then later carpenter). From talking to him I don't think he thought like "15 degrees for light work, 30 for chopping etc.", but he was very particular about the geometry none the less. He would sharpen blades with very different profiles depending on the intended scope of work.


As for jungle use, last year I spent some time with a friend from Maylasia who grew up doing jungle work (fruit gathering was one thing). He learned to make his own blades from a resistent forger and I learned quite a bit from him when he was here. While I don't think he thought of sharpening in terms of a particular angle, his blades were shaving sharp and had specific profiles as I had him sketch out a few. The only specific's interms of measurements were that he said that the parangs were from 3mm to 5mm in thickness. Any thinner and they were too flimsy any thicker and they were too heavy.

Give any native a machete with a 60 edge bevel and I would be very surprised if they didn't immediately know it was much too obtuse, same if it was 10 degrees, it would be too fragile. While they might not know XXX degrees is best for jungle work, I would be surprised if you layed out a dozen and they couldn't tell you which one had the best profile.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 01-06-2000).]
 
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