Care Of Horn Handles

Originally posted by Yvsa


Squeeze the living hay'ull outta a sheep.:p :rolleyes: :eek: ;) :D
Click to expand...


More from Hilda Ellis Davidson, The Sword in Anglo Saxon England, pg. 88:

H.E. Davidson (1962:88):

[The scabbard] of the sixth-century sword from Klein-Hueningen (see below Fig.)....was covered with fine leather, parts of which survived, and was lined with leather inside. At the foot was a space of about 3.8cm below the sword-point, and here traces of wool were found, as though the space was stuffed with wool or the point rested in a pocket of woollen material. Other examples of scabbards with traces of woollen lining have been found in Anglo-Saxon graves at Holborough, Finglesham, and Harrold, Bedfordshire. At Holborough and Finglesham sheepskin was probably used, and this is paralleled by a scabbard found in a Frankish grave at Orsoy, which had an inner lining of sheepskin with the fleece on the inside, coming into direct contact with the blade. Detailed examination of this showed that the direction of the hair was towards the mouthpiece, to facilitate the easy removal of the blade from the scabbard. It seems possible that the lanolin present in sheeps' wool would help to protect the blade from rust
Click to expand...

Figure:
littlehunsword.JPG


interesting stuff, while we're on the topic of squeezing sheep :eek:

wonder how well this sheepskin-lining design works, sounds like an interesting one if I ever custom made a scabbard myself.

cheers all, B.
 
...and a sarki swiped it?:eek: It makes good sense, considering the limited sources of rust preventives then.
 
Ben that's really something now!!!!:)

I have long wondered about what the ancients used on their blades to keep them from rusting.
I've always been of a mind that animal fats of some kind were used as not much else was available except perhaps for some vegetable
oils.
Somehow now that it's been mentioned it seems I have heard somewhere, somewhen, about sheepskin and/or lanolin being used, but it must have been the skin itself to have rang that memory far in the depths of what suffices for my mind.:eek: ;)

I don't know how long the olive has had the hay'ull squeezed outta
it:))) but it probably worked when nothing else was handy?
What about the oil the Japanese used on their blades?
Isn't that a flower or vegetable oil? How long has it been around I wonder?
Also makes me wonder how long sheep have been domesticated as well?
But surely the benefits of an oily skin such as sheep have would have been utilized even before domestication I would think.
The ancients might not have had the technology, but they had good minds and used them IMO.
 
Yvsa, that's what I thought but more thorough study ( I almost said the r-e-s-e-a-r-c__ word ) showed that they used mineral oil mixed with clove ( choji ) oil. When they started doing that who knows.
 
sandalwood oil is popular among keris collectors and is supposedly traditional. Ive also heard that jasmine oil was used as well. Ive also heard things about bees-wax. There's a whole surprising amount of oils out there that for some reason while used for hundreds of years are extremely difficult to get now (not impossible but just plain expensive). I like the smell of cednana oil, but at the prices it runs I guess Ill settle for mineral oil. Then theres the whole use it till it breaks mentality. When I speak to alota of older Pinoys about knives that seems to be a prevailing attitude. Use the knife till it cant be used no more, then it gets chopped up and made into another knife.
 
Originally posted by Yvsa
Ben that's really something now!!!!:)

I have long wondered about what the ancients used on their blades to keep them from rusting.
I've always been of a mind that animal fats of some kind were used as not much else was available except perhaps for some vegetable
oils.
Somehow now that it's been mentioned it seems I have heard somewhere, somewhen, about sheepskin and/or lanolin being used, but it must have been the skin itself to have rang that memory far in the depths of what suffices for my mind.:eek: ;)

I don't know how long the olive has had the hay'ull squeezed outta
it:))) but it probably worked when nothing else was handy?
What about the oil the Japanese used on their blades?
Isn't that a flower or vegetable oil? How long has it been around I wonder?
Also makes me wonder how long sheep have been domesticated as well?
But surely the benefits of an oily skin such as sheep have would have been utilized even before domestication I would think.
The ancients might not have had the technology, but they had good minds and used them IMO.
Click to expand...

Yvsa - my guess is that whatever light-sources [fats, veg. oils, wax, &c.] people had would work for 'oiling'. Federico mentioned beeswax, which I think is a good possibility, though I don't know much about the rust-preventing properties of beeswax, but I'd assume that it'ld work well since wax will form a tight seal.

Something else quite interesting I read in this book actually has to do with the finishing of pattern-welded blades (Achim, on the 'Khukuri steel' thread, mentioned using feric sulphate [??-if I remember rightly]) -- they need to be etched to bring the pattern out, just like wootz. Someone over at the Ethno forum at Vikingsword mentioned using lime juice for etching (but then once needs some sort of base agent to halt the process, right, I thought I remember Walosi talking about this). In any case, Hilda Ellis Davidson writes:

(pg.28)
The smith would use some kind of acid for [etching], and Liestøl (p. 88) suggests tannic acid, acetic acid (from vinegar), and urine as possibilities; other are fruit juice, sour beer [that what to do with your Heinekeins when they go off; and here's finally a use for Budweiser (et al.) in general (which is never 'on', IMO)--BMS], and vitriol[1]. Tannic acid would give a deep blue-black colour to steel, and would offer considerable resistance to rust [2].

fn. 1: [B.W. Robinson, in his article, 'The Sword of Islam', Apollo Annual, 1949, pg. 58] quotes a recipe [for renewing damascened blades] done with fine emery paper and oil, the oil being removed by lime and a final treatment being given with tobacco ash and water.

fn. 2: [re: Tannic Acid], ref=Knowles & Whate, 'The Protection of Metals with Tannins', Journal Oil and Colour Chemists' Association, xli (I), 1958, pg. 10f.
Click to expand...

I found this section extremely interesting myself.

Anyone know anything about tannic acid and rust-prevention. No idea what the connexion would be myself. But the deep blue-black staining of a damascened blade sounds fabulous to me!! Does that mean one would treat the blade with tea?? I suppose lot's of plants have tannin in them, red wine?

Not that I have any pattern-welded or wootz blades (that I know of) to dip in a cup of tea anyway, but....

interesting stuff - it's a fascinating book, this.

B.
 
I used to know the reactions of the different acids a little better, but cant seem to remember to clearly which was good for which. Anyways tannic acid is pretty cool stuff. If I remember correctly its used to give a more antiqued look versus acetic acid (ie. vinegar) and citric acid (ie fruit juices). With the way different metals react differently to the different acids, I cant seem to which reacts better with which. I used to know, but since I started concentrating on Moro swords Ive let the info dissipate. Though from the shards of memory that are left, I seem to think that tannic acids were more favoured by Euro, and Japanese stuff where an antiqued look is more favored. Kinda a stressed bluing notion. While citric acids reacted better to Indo-Malay pieces and wootz. Then theres the whole what type of citric acid, then the whole who cares what it looks like Im just trying to see the structure, etc... One thing I learned is that "experts" to a certain degree concerning weaponry make a good deal up on the fly, particularly antique dealers. Kinda makes me wonder about how much change really goes on with old pieces. Ive heard enough stories of carved ivory, re-set handles,etc... to make me eye everything I see twice. Anyways back to preserving stuff, Im still a big proponent that alota people just simply kept using their stuff with little care. Particularly with working knives that werent meant to be pretty and saw lotsa use. As they would get older patina would develop and that sure does add a good deal of protection that is darned hard to simulate. I know many a Pinoy who doesnt take care of their bolo/itak but uses them everyday. Im still surprised how resilient these things are, and how fast they get that there old look.
 
A coupla things:

Japanese oil:
Something called Camellia oil seems to show up a lot on websites for traditional Japanese woodworking tools. For some reason, I too associate flowers with this name, but I've not looked into this further. -- an example:

http://www.hidatool.com/miscelliuos.htm

Also, these people have some intriguing kitchen knives that should appeal to afcionados of villager khuks. Haven't bought any, but I'm very tempted:

http://www.hidatool.com/black_finished_carbon_steel.htm

Squeezin' sheep n' wooly lanolin:
As I recall, sweaters knit from unprocessed sheep's wool are preferred by old-timey fishermen and mariners for the reason that they retain a lot of lanolin and thus combine the property of wet wool being remaining warm with the water-repellent property of lanolin helping prevent them from getting wet to start with and getting heavy. And, dry wool is better than wet wool warmthwise. Wet wool is better than most any other natural fiber if you're going to be wet. The downside is you smell like a wet sheep. Lining a scabbard with natural untreated fleece sounds good to me since lanolin is a fatty substance and should thus retard rust.

Tannins:
Tannins are present in tree bark,at least in conifers, but I think also hardwoods. This is to my limited knowledge the richest source. In areas in the Pacific Northwest where log-rafts were run down rivers for many years the water chemistry was drastically changed due to the bark of conifer logs falling off, sinking to the bottom and acidifying the water. It seems very likely that ancient cultures would be able to collect bark, leach out and concentrate these natural products.
 
:eek: Wow! :eek:
Great woodworking sight! Neat Japanese tools.

You got anymore of those sights, firkin?
I love looking at tools even though I cant afford'em. :( :D :cool:
 
Why not? I cant afford anything that I REALLY REALLY WANT anyway.

Send what you got (Let the inner-woodchuck come forth!)
 
Ok here's my weird $.02:

Lansinoh (for breastfeeding mothers). This is what I use of my handles--seriously. The ingredients read like this: "100% Lansinoh, the worlds purest lanolin (USP modified lanolin, ultrapure medical grade)." Not sure of price, but a little goes a long way.

and as an added bonus the missus can use it if needed:D Seriously if your significant others are breastfeeding it can pull double duty.

"Lansinoh is recommended for the treatment of sore nipples, and does not need to be removed prior to breastfeeding"

Not sure about the taste though....;) :D :p ;) :D :eek:
 
Hey Rob,
funny you should mention that. We have a tube of lansinoh, and in is awesome for chapped skin and lips as well. A bit expensive, though maybe $10 for the 4-6 oz tube. I got a 12 oz tub of 100% lanolin from the drugstore (had to ask the pharmacist) for about 13 bucks. Not as smooth as the lansinoh (it's older), but my wife's eyes don't burn red when I suggest using it on my knives ;) :D

Pat
 
Hey Guys:

I think I'd better stop asking these dumb questions.

I'm having a little trouble with sheep squeezing.

JimF
 
Originally posted by MauiRob
Ok here's my weird $.02:

Seriously if your significant others are breastfeeding it can "pull" double duty.:D
Click to expand...
Emphasis mine.

No pun intended eh Rob?:p :rolleyes: :D hehehehehe

Originally posted by JimF
Hey Guys:
I think I'd better stop asking these dumb questions.
I'm having a little trouble with sheep squeezing.

JimF
Click to expand...

Jim I believe it's easier if you have access to an old cane or cider press. Now I'm not saying I have any experience in squeezeing a sheep, but from seeing both the above in action I have no reason whatsoever to believe it wouldn't work.:D
Actually the cane press powered by a couple of old sheep mules would probably be the best.
The mules would no doubt help you herd the sheep into the press since after a long career in working sheep they (the mules) have a tendency to lay their ears back and roll their eyes when they see or even smell a sheep.:rolleyes: ;)

It may be a little difficult to get a sheep inside of a cider press come to think of it.:rolleyes: :D

Edit.
Dayum it!!!! Everyone knows how to spell carrer, er career.:)
 
Originally posted by firkin

Squeezin' sheep n' wooly lanolin:
As I recall, sweaters knit from unprocessed sheep's wool are preferred by old-timey fishermen and mariners for the reason that they retain a lot of lanolin and thus combine the property of wet wool being remaining warm with the water-repellent property of lanolin helping prevent them from getting wet to start with and getting heavy. And, dry wool is better than wet wool warmthwise. Wet wool is better than most any other natural fiber if you're going to be wet. The downside is you smell like a wet sheep. Lining a scabbard with natural untreated fleece sounds good to me since lanolin is a fatty substance and should thus retard rust.
Click to expand...

I think it's a good idea, lining the scabbard I mean(not smelling like a wet sheep)

Originally posted by firkin
Tannins:
Tannins are present in tree bark,at least in conifers, but I think also hardwoods. This is to my limited knowledge the richest source. In areas in the Pacific Northwest where log-rafts were run down rivers for many years the water chemistry was drastically changed due to the bark of conifer logs falling off, sinking to the bottom and acidifying the water. It seems very likely that ancient cultures would be able to collect bark, leach out and concentrate these natural products.
Click to expand...

For some reason I'm thinking tannin is only present in conifers, at least in a useful concentration. I could be wrong, as it's not an area of expertise for me ;) Of course, Saxons & others would have also used tannin for curing leather.

Originally posted by federico
Anyways back to preserving stuff, Im still a big proponent that alota people just simply kept using their stuff with little care. Particularly with working knives that werent meant to be pretty and saw lotsa use. As they would get older patina would develop and that sure does add a good deal of protection that is darned hard to simulate.
Click to expand...

I think I half agree with you. I imagine that mediaevals probably didn't rub down their blades with mineral oil or animal fat or wax that much, most likely. But well-made swords were well cared for as they were family heirlooms in some cases, or the property of the King (of one of the Saxon kingdoms) in other cases--pattern-welded blades being particularly valued. So I think they were careful to clean blood off, keep them dry, &c. And it looks as if a lot of 'passive' rust-protection was employed, like the sheep-skin-lined scabbards and the tannic acid treatment in the case of pattern-welded blades.

There were some fairly advanced finishing techniques employed too. Again I quote from H.E. Davidson:
....It is possible that the pulvis referred to might be kieselguhr, a form of diatomaceous silica which is used in mildly abrasive polishing compounds, and which would be suitable for burnishing sword-blades. It appears that there were not many places where kieselguhr could be found near the surface and easily obtained in early times, but it was certainly worked very early in one area near the Elbe...
Click to expand...

cheers, B.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top