Civilian or police for self defense?

Very nice post, CJL101. The technique you intend to use (or the one you fall back on under stress) is critical to your choice of blade.

I would raise one minor point of disagreement. I feel that the slash is easier to connect with than the thrust. The entire outer arc your arm describes as it moves through the slash is dangerous and a potential contact point, versus the relatively small area a thrust can connect with, straight ahead. Think, for example of which you would rather dodge (were they moving at the same speed): a bullet or a scythe? Alternatively, think of how much easier it is to hit a baseball by swinging at it than by poking at it. When a moving target is involved, I feel the slash is more likely to connect.

You are right-on that slashes will generally be more superficial but also more upsetting wounds. The Civilian is the king of slashes, in-line with a hit-and run philosophy where the object is to create the opportunity for escape rather than killing an assailant outright. I feel that not only is this both morally and legally preferable, but it is more likely to succeed under duress. A thrust virtually needs to get past the assailant's limbs in order to be truly effective. The Civilian can do its work with a strike to virtually any part of the body. Under stress, I don't want to count on my ability to defeat someone's flailing (potentially armed) hands and deliver a precise strike to the torso. I may be reduced to flailing myself, and want a weapon that won't become ineffective should my presence-of-mind be less than perfect.

That's why I believe in the design of the Civilian. Others may feel differently. If one is interested in a thrusting knife, the Goddard with its large integral guard is a fine choice. It's belly will also let it slash fairly well. I don't personally recommend the Police model or the Endura because neither has any real guard, but of the two the Zytel Endura is far preferable. I love the Police model for many reasons (I had no fewer than four in my house this weekend, including my own!), but I cannot stress enough how easy it is to end up with your hand on the blade when thrusting with it.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
These posts are starting to get interesting now.

When I jog, I carry a fixed blade because it's solid and isn't subject to pivot point failure like a folder might be. I want to be able to get the knife out in an instant in a motion which automatically becomes a defensive move. This means the method of carry is pretty important. However, the knife carry must be comfortable enough while jogging to allow free movement. I hate restrictions when I jog, so method of carry is somewhat restricted. The neck knife fits my needs pretty well. When I pull it, it comes out in a natural slashing motion. It is completely unnatural for me to attempt a stabbing motion on deployment.

The natural and intuitive motion is most important, because the way I see it, I may not have any warning of attack. Instinct must take over and be effective. I try to be aware while jogging, and if I can anticipate a situation, I can prepare ahead of time to either avoid or be ready with knife already out. In the case where I am prewarned, a stabbing motion may as good as, or possibly better than, a slashing motion. It's always nice to have advance warning so you can be prepared either way.

Give me enough warning and Nike-do works better than anything else I know. After all, I am out jogging and avoidance may be just a short wind sprint away.
smile.gif
 
Thanks again for all of the advice. CJL101,
yor method to determine my attack teqnique is very good. I haven't had a chanbce to test it yet since I couldn't get on at all today. Was the site down? Anyway, I was surprised to see so many replies. As to your suggestions on an endura and delica, I already have a delica and like it for utility, but it is a little small in my eyes for anything but a last ditch, back against the wall situation. I don't have a problem with a large folder because of small hands, actually I have pretty big hands. Bob Irons, you do have a point with the flight idea, but I'm still planning on being prepared.

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
 
Roadrunner - A lot of wisdom displayed here. One thing to remember is the effectiveness of the tool, should that (hopefully never) situation occur, is totally dependent on the tool being very sharp.
sal
 
I have to second Sal’s comment on the sharp aspect of a defensive knife (as well as his hope that it never need be used). To take it one step further I feel a SERRATED blade is a requirement in a defensive knife, especially if you use a slashing technique. As has been pointed out (no pun intended) the points on a properly serrated blade provide multiple opportunities for the blade to ‘snag’ on the target. This is what gives you your initial penetration and starts a cut. Plain blades are slightly less likely to start to cut in a slash. Serrations also work better for cutting fibrous material which is exactly what muscle and tendons are.

Back swept, full serrated blades like the Military or Endura can start to cut from a variety of angles of attack precisely because they have a decent belly which presents the points of the serrations well. This means you are more likely to do damage even it you are swinging blindly. Forward swept blades like the Civilian, Matriarch and Harpy rely less on the points of the serrations to start a cut and more on the fact that the tip is in line with the swing. It’s almost like having a thrusting knife at 90 degrees.

Of course, since this is the SPYDERCO forum here, I expect I am preaching to the chorus when it comes to serrated blades!

Stay Safe


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If you try, you may fail. If you don't try, you certainly will.

 
Regarding the preferability of serrations on a defensive knife, I want to confess that I have my doubts. CJL101 makes a good point about the pointed teeth effectively initiating a cut. My concern, however, is that the serrations would get hung up on loose fabric (clothing). If you ever compare serrated vs. a (sharp, of course!) plain edge, you'll see that serrations work best when the material is under tension. Try cutting a loosely held rag or towel with a serrated edge. Even my factory-fresh Spyderedges tend to pull and tear when applied to loose cloth. This worries me. I'd hate to get my blade caught during a violent encounter. Now, I'll admit that I haven't troubled myself to do any realisitc testing in the back yard using raw meat practice dummies clothed in various kinds of fabrics. My hunch (and it is just a hunch at this point) is that a Civilian would work great against a naked opponent, but heaven help you if your first desperate slash hooks into a sleeve or jacket with no flesh behind it. Again, I haven't tested this, but I think the nasty, forward-curved tip that Civilian fans rave about would compound the snagging, blade hang-up problem if the blade encountered loose clothing either before or after making contact with the opponent's flesh.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Picture yourself making a sweeping slash with a Civilian. Suppose you miss the mark (great knife for sloppy slashing technique, according its proponents), and the tip hooks into the bad guy's denim jacket. The blade snags to a halt: you lose your momentum, your follow-through, and possibly even your knife!

I wish I could test this hunch, but I don't own a Civilian. I'll take my thinner-than-factory, coarsely sharpened plain-edge Goddard Lightweight any day, thank you.

Any comments?

David Rock

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 15 June 1999).]
 
Another consideration that you may wish to take into account is the defensive situation in which the knife is likely to be used. If you are concerned with the possibility of having to deal with aggressive dogs, you might question the efficacy of a slashing attack. Dogs routinely receive severe wounds of the slashing/tearing type from other dogs and continue to fight on. A blade with the ability to deliver a deep thrust and cut its way out can quickly inflict damage sufficient to terminate a dog attack. A slashing blade may encounter problems with matted fur, collars, etc., as well as require skillful placement of a slash to disable a dog.

[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 15 June 1999).]
 
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