Off Topic Connecticut poll troubles

....and this is what it looked like after the final,the 5th pass:https://imgur.com/tvNWrS6
At this point both Andrew and i had to run on to our respective chores,me somewhat regretfully letting him get away...With his industrial background he filled it Just flush,and i really would've loved seeing an entire level above the old poll surface,to allow me to come back down from that closer to the original,as new,dimention of that back surface.also i'm not sure yet how much erosion there is at the boundaries of the new seam,which may also cost some thickness.
But i'll know more when i grind it flush,and maybe brave some minor repairs myself.
I'm happy to have the foundation,the heart of the mass done by a pro,that right there is a lovely feeling.
Years ago when i was being trained to weld some by an old-timer friend he taught me a few welding axioms.a major one being that "if a weld looks like s...t it is without any doubt IS s..t".Don't ever trust a weld done by someone who says:"Well,it may look ugly but it's a good weld",it doesn't work like that.A sound weld looks Good.
I'll update when i get a chance to level this.
 
jake pogg said:
....and this is what it looked like after the final,the 5th pass:https://imgur.com/tvNWrS6
At this point both Andrew and i had to run on to our respective chores,me somewhat regretfully letting him get away...With his industrial background he filled it Just flush,and i really would've loved seeing an entire level above the old poll surface,to allow me to come back down from that closer to the original,as new,dimention of that back surface.also i'm not sure yet how much erosion there is at the boundaries of the new seam,which may also cost some thickness.
But i'll know more when i grind it flush,and maybe brave some minor repairs myself.
I'm happy to have the foundation,the heart of the mass done by a pro,that right there is a lovely feeling.
Years ago when i was being trained to weld some by an old-timer friend he taught me a few welding axioms.a major one being that "if a weld looks like s...t it is without any doubt IS s..t".Don't ever trust a weld done by someone who says:"Well,it may look ugly but it's a good weld",it doesn't work like that.A sound weld looks Good.
I'll update when i get a chance to level this.
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Great play by play Jake thank you. It's filed in the memory bank for later. :thumbsup:.
Most important part; have a professional do the things you aren't competent enough to do yourself. :)
 
jake pogg said:
And this,https://imgur.com/69RMVUM,is after the second pass,slag knocked off and knotted wire-wheel brushed,but before grinding.
Then so on,for a total of 5 passes.
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Link above doesn't work (https://imgur.com/69RMVUM,is). But here's the image you meant to link to:

69RMVUM.jpg
 
JoeP01 said:
But here's the image you meant to link to:
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Joe,thanks much,Sir.i always manage to screw these things up:)

Square_peg said:
You're buddy is a helluva welder to lay a fat bead like that so nicely. That ain't easy and it takes a ton of power.
Click to expand...

Yep,Square_peg,you're absolutely right.He doesn't use our half-ass village grid;instead there's this trailer-mounted generator-welder parked in the yard and it's where the arc comes from(as well as all smaller migs and other shop stuff plugs into).
Andrew does much large equipment welding.I remember the one job moons ago now where he was cutting apart loaders and graders and such to fit into DC-6's to be flown to this one mining operation south of here,and afterwards welding them back together there.Lots of thick stuff...
So yes,you guys can see why i went to him for this,it's a nice old axe and deserves the best we can do for it...(that "Americanax" stamp on the side is totally unaffected by the process,btw).

I always learn a lot working with him,welding is a different world from forging(we're a nuisance and a ruination to each other's work schedules,needing something from that alien to us reality:)
Working with someone who can't hear or speak is both a blessing and a curse-saves a Lot of time to not be able to bs too much:)...But often missing out on stuff too,unless there's time to write in a notepad et c.
I didn't quite get his answer in regards to that letter/digit/letter designation on the rod.Something about deeper penetration or just in general higher tensile strength,not sure.
Also was surprised when he was adamantly against my wanting to "quench" the fresh weld after we were done...Surely 7018 can't have enough C to be hardenable?(can't believe my laziness in never looking that up...).
There's Lots that's fascinating in this process...Welding takes steel to liquidus(something forging never does).At cooling it must crystallize in a shape following the cooling pattern,forming a dendritic structure...
(Ipt,in Skandi axes et c.,actually casts steel heads...wish i had the time to pick his brain on this subject...).

Sorry for rambling on pointlessly...
 
jake pogg said:
Arright,so here's the beginning of the process of repair.

To run ahead slightly,two things may be pertinent:

1.At close personal examination i tend to conclude that the eye on this axe was obtained by slitting(& subsequently drifting to shape).

The slitter being ovoid in section normally has it's edges(ends of oval section)sharp.Those leave a little pointed dimple on the aft,poll, end of the future eye especially,as the steel is elastic only to a point.

That little groove down the inside of the poll has served as a stress-"riser"-concentrator-when some dips..t sledged the poll sufficiently to propagate a crack starting at the dimple and running the entire thickness of poll.

Steel is a crystalline structure and very succeptable to such dynamics(somewhat like glass being scored for breaking along the score-mark).

2.In spite of my agreeing to do this i chickened out at the last moment and went to my buddy Andrew,a professional welder.So i only am doing the grinding and other dirty/dumb tasks,while he directs the process.Andrew is super experienced and competent(with strong anal-retentive component)and i trust him implicitly.And this is such a classy old axe,et c.


So,he had me grind it thus:https://imgur.com/g83sC9b

That V does not go clear into the eye,to avoid any possible distortion of halves relative each other.

It'll not be a 100% integral,thickness-wise,but we sacrifice that as there'll be plenty of reserve in repair to do it's two main jobs;to keep the poll in a circumference holding in the haft,and having the proper amount of mass for the balance et c. of this tool.

(i only hope it's ok with Agent_H that i'm calling the shots here on these technical points...).
Click to expand...
g83sC9b.jpg


Oh, that is so much cleaner of a cut than I could have made! Your explanation of the the initial drifting leaving a slit/cut that made it more susceptible to failure during misuse very much makes sense.


jake pogg said:
The welding takes place with the blade up to the middle of eye submerged in a can of water.I don't want to loose the original HT of the tool.(That cooling water never boils so i know it never gets above 200 F +/-).

Electrode is Excalibur 7018 H4R for root-pass.Here's a photo of the root just made:https://imgur.com/XCk5IKf

In a minute i'll clean it all shiny,with Andrew sending me back to the grinder again and again till No traces of inclusions are left.

(Andrew is a deaf-mute after surviving menengitis when he was 5 and not easy to argue with...we worked together for over 20 years,and though i'm an ass and never learned ASL we've our own telegraphic language we use,and we're all business,no second-guessing each other...).
Click to expand...
weld-1.jpg


jake pogg said:
....and this is what it looked like after the final,the 5th pass:https://imgur.com/tvNWrS6

At this point both Andrew and i had to run on to our respective chores,me somewhat regretfully letting him get away...With his industrial background he filled it Just flush,and i really would've loved seeing an entire level above the old poll surface,to allow me to come back down from that closer to the original,as new,dimention of that back surface.also i'm not sure yet how much erosion there is at the boundaries of the new seam,which may also cost some thickness.

But i'll know more when i grind it flush,and maybe brave some minor repairs myself.

I'm happy to have the foundation,the heart of the mass done by a pro,that right there is a lovely feeling.

Years ago when i was being trained to weld some by an old-timer friend he taught me a few welding axioms.a major one being that "if a weld looks like s...t it is without any doubt IS s..t".Don't ever trust a weld done by someone who says:"Well,it may look ugly but it's a good weld",it doesn't work like that.A sound weld looks Good.

I'll update when i get a chance to level this.
Click to expand...
tvNWrS6.jpg


I feel very fortunate and certainly appreciate the offer to fix that old axe and both of you spending your time on it!

Neither straight cuts nor solid welds are in my skill set!
 
Agent_H said:
Neither straight cuts nor solid welds are in my skill set!
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Welcome to the club then,neither they're in mine:)

One of my quandaries was the shape of the V-cut that was needed.I meant to use my dinky 4" cut-off disc to do that,but wasn't sure of the angle.
Turned out that A. had a 9" grinder bolted to the table,with a 36 grit wheel on it,running in a vertical plane(table-saw-like).
I just shoved the axe into it,rolling it gradually to keep the depth constant.The surrounding angle iron supports made it controllable and secure.
The width/shape of groove was determined by disc profile.Subsequent regrinding was gradually widening the groove,kinda automatically creating the necessary V for proper welding.
So now i have an idea if ever i was to reproduce it with smaller tools.

Here's another shot of the poll after welding:https://imgur.com/JVeDOHe

You can maybe see that the slight mushroom edges are not too steep except in one small section in upper left in photo.
I'd like to try to gently persuade them with a hammer back into straight sides,before leveling the poll...(If it'd be ok with you,Agent_H,unless you'd rather do it yourself?)
There's also just one very slight bulge of the side of eye where the poll was beat in hardest;that same flattening action,methinks,should straighten that as well.
The eye is actually very close to it's even,symmetrical,original shape,and ought to handle just fine,with no special adjustments...
 
So, the shape of this one says it's most likely a Collins Rockaway, rare and so cool. Granted this one is *rough*. But I'm not sure if this kind of problem can be fixed? Looking for input. It'll get hung regardless of a fix (display), I'd just love to be able to make it safe to use.

I was thinking I could get a hacksaw in there to cut a kerf to (have someone) fill?

20190827_085035-1512x851.jpg 20190827_084509-1209x2874.jpg 20190827_084449-863x1241.jpg
 
I'd put a semi-worn cutoff wheel on a 4 inch angle grinder and try to slot it out with that as much as you can. Tape off the top of the eye and fill it with vinegar to clean out the crack from the inevitable rust. Then have a welder probably arc weld it up as the stick for the arc welder enables a longer reach into the eye. Cut off a piece from the front of the tongue on the handle to allow for the weld, fit it, wedge it, and you're done!
 
Half an inch of weld at the top and bottom of the eye would stabilize it. Slot it out as A17 suggests. Don't worry about the vinegar. The only place the weld will hold is where it freshly ground.

Or use it till it actually fails. The bulk of that forge weld might still be good. It might not need fixing.
 
Fmont said:
So, the shape of this one says it's most likely a Collins Rockaway, rare and so cool. Granted this one is *rough*. But I'm not sure if this kind of problem can be fixed? Looking for input. It'll get hung regardless of a fix (display), I'd just love to be able to make it safe to use.

I was thinking I could get a hacksaw in there to cut a kerf to (have someone) fill?

View attachment 1186085 View attachment 1186086 View attachment 1186087
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That is a great looking axe! Has loads of character! If it were mine I'd probably hang it and use it to failure and then repair if it breaks. It would be interesting to find out how long it would last looking like that.
I think we've all got some with incomplete welds and have wondered about their longevity. I bet it would last awhile.
Have you seated it at all on a haft? Does the crack separate at all under pressure?
 
I haven't! This is for me dah, it's going to get a nice hang regardless. I just won't push the hang too much if it I don't reinforce it. The photos of the split are one from top, one from bottom. It's fully separated for about an inch. Seating n wedging can induce a lot of pressure, I'm trying not to induce a catastrophic failure on the chance it is prone to split more. I think I'll find someone willing to fill out some slots as recommended.

Dad grew up about an hour from Rockaway. He had a story about finding an axe with a really cool haft in the woods as a kid. I'd love to get him a McKinnon but I don't even have one yet! But this is about right, it's a nice Rockaway that'll look good over the mantle. I wish whoever had it hadn't grindered the hell out of the poll, but I'll blend it better.
 
Fmont said:
The photos of the split are one from top, one from bottom. It's fully separated for about an inch.
Click to expand...

Fmont,some thoughts for you,just in case you'd find it useful in any way...
This crack is old,as old as the tool itself,it's a failed weld.
As such it has never made a bond of any strength.It may've not been visible,but it was never integral.
(freezing a rotting stump of a haft may've exposed it,but i seriously doubt even such great force could break a Good forge-weld right along the entire seam(i may of course be wrong on that)).

Weld such as this,centered in the front of eye with no added tricks(third component to laminate,asymmetric weld,et c.)is always tricky.
Eye tapers there,and so in drifting the eye to final shape always puts an unpleasant,worrysome amount of pressure right on it,and the weld being fresh then.

In the bad old days of USSR they had a universal standards for everything,written out clear and concise.In the one on axe-making it stipulates that that same seam shall not exceed 5mm(1/4").

Even though yours may be longer than that,i like the fact that fairly advanced industry had to concede to that crack being there:)

And i'd not be surprised if that axe can be handled with a normal degree of pressure and never widen that crack.I'd just watch it attentively while wedging...

Actually,it may be an idea to try some dummy handle to see just how much pressure it'd take to start separating/widening that crack...I may easily be off but i still would bet on rather more than it needs to hold an axehead on securely...
 
Arright...the madness of my reality having temporarily moderated i finally had a chance to get back to our CT...

I'm more than ever impressed with Andrew's competence,that weld had no voids whatsoever,nor was there any erosion along it's edges that i feared.
That surface ground entirely solid and level,and Just to the level of original material(naturally i'm absolutely reluctant to take it down in Any way past that).
https://imgur.com/wF6eshP

I've had lesser luck with planishing down the edges of that mushroom.
The material is dead-soft(originally or after repeated heating during welding we'll never know).
In theory i could've planished it in perfect plane with the sides of eye,but it seemed like a Lot of mass to be moving cold,and the inevitable resulting dislocations to the lattice is not what we want in a working tool.And i really have NO earthly idea of where the limit-the critical embrittlement-would be with this particular alloy.
Again,i felt right doing only the absolute Minimum of invasive processes,i'll let our esteemed Agent_H make any decisions in regards to further modification of the shape,according to his tastes and instincts...(i'd chamfer those sharp edges at least a little,in some manner,rounded or faceted...).
I feel that my part in this was repair only,and i believe it went as well as could have been hoped for...

Personally,i enjoyed this greatly.I think that there's a tremendous potential in old axes+fabrication principle...We all touched several times on assorted repair and even re-blading issues,and this small episode reconfirms my confidence in a great potential in this direction...

I'll shoot this back to the rightful owner as soon as our PO opens on Monday,and hopefully he'll get it soon,and maybe give us the benefit of his thoughts on all this once he looks at it closely...
 
jake pogg said:
Arright...the madness of my reality having temporarily moderated i finally had a chance to get back to our CT...

I'm more than ever impressed with Andrew's competence,that weld had no voids whatsoever,nor was there any erosion along it's edges that i feared.
That surface ground entirely solid and level,and Just to the level of original material(naturally i'm absolutely reluctant to take it down in Any way past that).
https://imgur.com/wF6eshP

I've had lesser luck with planishing down the edges of that mushroom.
The material is dead-soft(originally or after repeated heating during welding we'll never know).
In theory i could've planished it in perfect plane with the sides of eye,but it seemed like a Lot of mass to be moving cold,and the inevitable resulting dislocations to the lattice is not what we want in a working tool.And i really have NO earthly idea of where the limit-the critical embrittlement-would be with this particular alloy.
Again,i felt right doing only the absolute Minimum of invasive processes,i'll let our esteemed Agent_H make any decisions in regards to further modification of the shape,according to his tastes and instincts...(i'd chamfer those sharp edges at least a little,in some manner,rounded or faceted...).
I feel that my part in this was repair only,and i believe it went as well as could have been hoped for...

Personally,i enjoyed this greatly.I think that there's a tremendous potential in old axes+fabrication principle...We all touched several times on assorted repair and even re-blading issues,and this small episode reconfirms my confidence in a great potential in this direction...

I'll shoot this back to the rightful owner as soon as our PO opens on Monday,and hopefully he'll get it soon,and maybe give us the benefit of his thoughts on all this once he looks at it closely...
Click to expand...

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I think it looks great Jake! I appreciate your and Andrew’s time and skill immensely. On that note, please thank Andrew for me.

The weld looks solid and quite thorough to me. I’m sure the heat changed it some but I imagine it to have been a little soft to begin with. I’ll likely dress the poll with small bevels or facets like you mentioned.

There are several nice 32” handles that I keep picturing it on.

I don’t know it’s story for the last user but it’s got one for me now.
It will get sharpened, hung, and used with pride!
 
Agent_H said:
g83sC9b.jpg


weld-1.jpg



tvNWrS6.jpg
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Agent_H said:
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I think it looks great Jake! I appreciate your and Andrew’s time and skill immensely. On that note, please thank Andrew for me.

The weld looks solid and quite thorough to me. I’m sure the heat changed it some but I imagine it to have been a little soft to begin with. I’ll likely dress the poll with small bevels or facets like you mentioned.

There are several nice 32” handles that I keep picturing it on.

I don’t know it’s story for the last user but it’s got one for me now.
It will get sharpened, hung, and used with pride!
Click to expand...

J jake pogg you and your friend Andrew knocked it out of the park!
Absolutely a great thread to watch and read...craftsmen of your trades the both of you are. :):thumbsup:

Agent_H Agent_H That is one prized connie with a story to hand down with it. I love a clean crisp pole and you have one made for you...just a great piece, better now;):cool:
 
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