CPM 154 characteristics

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Aug 8, 2002
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Alright, I see that the new GSO 4.7 will be available in CPM 154. I know it is the particle metal version of 154cm, but who can give me info as to the characteristics of the steel?

Is it more or less stain resistant than CPM20CV?
More or less impact resistant?
What about wear resistance?

Basically, I'd like to know how it compares to the other offerings from Survive!, and why one would choose it over the others.

Thanks in advance.

Junkyard
 
I suspect that it splits the difference of the other offerings from Survive! In wear resistance, toughness, and stain resistance, but I'd like to know for sure.

Junkyard
 
There is a thread here from 6-25-14 titled

Is cpm 20cv same as M390?

I wish I knew how to link a thread. This is a good discussion on the 2 steels you asked about...
 
Thank you for making this thread! I feel like 154 was discussed somewhere but I didn't get to look to find it. I'm looking forward to being enlightened by others who know more. I was a little surprised another stainless was being offered as it seemed like 20cv was the king of hard use stainless. I trust Guy!

Brian, all you have to do is copy the web address of the thread and paste it in your post. It will then magically transport anyone who clicks on it to the thread. I'll see if I can find it!

EDIT: Why can't I find that thread?!
 
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154CM will be a little more stain resistant and tougher than 20CV, but a lot less wear resistant. The big advantage of CPM-154 over 20CV in the field will be ease of sharpening. It is a lot easier to sharpen.
 
CMP 154 with the Peter's heat treat would be sweet. It is extremely easy to sharpen in the field. It's does not have the edge retention or corrosion resistance of 20cv and I doubt that anyone would notice any difference in toughness between the two steels.
 
Thanks for the info, and the link. I did a little poking around, but couldn't come up with much. It has been more than a few years since I was active on this forum, so my search-fu is a bit weak.

I guess, more than anything, I was trying to understand the choice to offer the CPM154 as another option. To be clear, I wasn't doubting Guy's choice, just trying to educate myself.

Also, just a side note, I have been a knife junkie since I got my first Swiss Army Knife almost 35 years ago. I have gone through phases of collecting along with using knives that whole time. I got really serious for a while, to include a couple of Loveless' and other customs as well as a bunch of Randall's and William Henry's, that were ultimately sold to fund a move across the country and a decent down payment on a new house. The last ten years or so, living in North Idaho, utility has driven my choices in knives, and more recently I have been very good about keeping myself in check.

Well, I'm screwed now. I went over and visited Survive! About a month ago. Guy and Ellie were awesome! They were working their tails off, and still took time to show me around, answer some questions, and treat me like an honored guest. Guy showed me some of the knives he was working on, and then it happened, he handed me GSO 5.1. I felt that same stirring inside. Almost like waking the sleeping bear. I was hooked! There was no Stag or other exotic materials, no fancy anything. It was pure utility. Pure performance. No detail was overlooked. It was as close to perfection as I have ever seen in a knife. And I wouldn't say that lightly.

I got to meet two wonderful, and really cool people, and see their facility. I got to see my first Survive! Knife, (and not knowing what the older models were like, I can say that the new Eros are truly awesome.) They won me over, And I have become a huge fan of Survive! So much so, I have since ordered 4 knives from them.

Thanks to the guys on this forum, and a really big thanks to Guy and Ellie.

Junkyard
 
Thank you for sharing this Junkyard. I often wanted to get down to Gettysburg when they were still operating in PA, but the opportunity never came. I am glad that you had the opportunity to visit Guy and Ellie. I am also pleased to hear your thoughts on the GSO 5.1. It is one of my favorite GSO models, and I have yet to hold the new design.
 
One of the main advantages to CPM154 would be that it is easier to grind than 20CV and a bit easier to make a knife from it.
For bushcraft purposes it should be great since that use doesn't involve much draw cutting of abrasive materials.
 
To be honest, we did a few GSO-4.7s in CPM-154 mainly because we were curious about it. 154CM is such a widely used stainless option, Guy figured the CPM-154 would be even better so why not give it a chance? We haven't had a chance to completely put one through its paces just yet, but I'm sure Guy will mention more about it when he does.

He is the steel researcher so I asked him for more information before replying. The big difference is that 154CM is tougher than CPM-20CV. Being a CPM version of 154CM, I would imagine that these GSO-4.7s will be even more so.

It was nice to have a change of pace for a few hours. We don't get out much, especially right now. There will definitely be a couple days off after Christmas!
 
Thank you for sharing this Junkyard. I often wanted to get down to Gettysburg when they were still operating in PA, but the opportunity never came. I am glad that you had the opportunity to visit Guy and Ellie. I am also pleased to hear your thoughts on the GSO 5.1. It is one of my favorite GSO models, and I have yet to hold the new design.

like I said, I have never seen the older knives, so I cannot make a comparison, but I'm a large fella. I have been teased about having "Bear Paws" "Meat Paws" "Sausage Fingers" and a few others that are less than appropriate for here. The 5.1 fit my hand like no other knife ever has; like they designed it just for me actually. I was so surprised, that I couldn't help but say something to Guy and Ellie. That's when Ellie showed me the brilliance of the design, that it fit her petite hands equally as well. I was shocked. I have read, on this forum actually, that you have reached perfection, not when there is nothing to add, but when there is nothing to take away. (My apologies for not properly citing this, and for the paraphrasing.) Well, I'd say that about sums it up. There's no BS. No superfluous crap. It's just a great designed handle that works. And it works well for jumbo to small hand sizes. As to the new finish, I love it. Guy enumerated the benefits of it to me, although sadly, I was fixated on the 5.1 in my hand and trying not to look like a smitten school boy; so I missed a lot of what he was saying.

I just couldn't be more impressed. Like I said before Pure Performance. There is an elegance in that which is hard for me to articulate to people, but as the 5.1s start to be received by those on this forum, I have no doubt someone will do a better job than I. In the meantime, I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas morning while I am waiting for the two that I bought during the Pre-Sale.

On another topic, I've never been to Gettysburg, but I did grow up back East. You should come out here for a Visit. Many years ago, I did a road trip out "West." Starting in the Blackhills, I decided that I needed to move. The Further West I went, the more Serious I got, that is right until I hit Washington. I went back East, and for years, planned how I was going to get out here. I met a woman, fell in love, and life went on; but I always knew I needed to be out here. Needless to say, I brought my wife out here for a vacation one year, and we moved six months later.

Junkyard
 
To be honest, we did a few GSO-4.7s in CPM-154 mainly because we were curious about it. 154CM is such a widely used stainless option, Guy figured the CPM-154 would be even better so why not give it a chance? We haven't had a chance to completely put one through its paces just yet, but I'm sure Guy will mention more about it when he does.

He is the steel researcher so I asked him for more information before replying. The big difference is that 154CM is tougher than CPM-20CV. Being a CPM version of 154CM, I would imagine that these GSO-4.7s will be even more so.

It was nice to have a change of pace for a few hours. We don't get out much, especially right now. There will definitely be a couple days off after Christmas!

I think that CPM 154 is a perfect "middle ground" between 20CV and 3V.

The "numbers" show, I believe, that '154 has twice the toughness of 20CV and half the wear resistance, making it less likely to fail and easier to sharpen. For outdoors chores, I doubt that the difference in edge retention will be very noticeable.

For those who want a knife that is tougher and easier to sharpen than 20cv, but more stain resistant than 3V, CPM 154 looks like the perfect solution. I can't wait to try a 4.7 in CPM 154.
 
154CM will be a little more stain resistant and tougher than 20CV, but a lot less wear resistant. The big advantage of CPM-154 over 20CV in the field will be ease of sharpening. It is a lot easier to sharpen.

Correct. This my experience using both. I had a CPM bark river Bravo 1 that would get so rediculously sharp it was difficultto shave with. It would bite me. But... Remove bark from a 1 inch wide by 12 inch green stick and the edge was gone fast. It held an acceptible working edge though. But when I got 3V, i was shocked about how i could debark what felt like an entire tree and not lose the ability to shave. 20CV seems to be somwhere in between
 
154CM will be a little more stain resistant and tougher than 20CV, but a lot less wear resistant. The big advantage of CPM-154 over 20CV in the field will be ease of sharpening. It is a lot easier to sharpen.

Tougher that CPM 20v? Yes, Stain resistance? No.
 
I think that CPM 154 is a perfect "middle ground" between 20CV and 3V.

The "numbers" show, I believe, that '154 has twice the toughness of 20CV and half the wear resistance, making it less likely to fail and easier to sharpen. For outdoors chores, I doubt that the difference in edge retention will be very noticeable.

For those who want a knife that is tougher and easier to sharpen than 20cv, but more stain resistant than 3V, CPM 154 looks like the perfect solution. I can't wait to try a 4.7 in CPM 154.

I would be VERY VERY surprised if this is true. The Charpy data I have seen on toughness shows that 154CM, 440C, S30V, S35VN, CPM-154, and 20CV are all in the 30-40 J range on longitudinal impact testing. They only differ on transverse toughness where applicability is questionable and the numbers are quite low, with the PM steels all rating about the same level above the ingots... differences are slight between the PM bunch.

Keep in mind that toughness tracks closely with carbide volume and carbide size/distribution. Wear resistance and ease of sharpening track closely with these as well, but carbide type then comes into play.

440C has 12% total carbide volume, all of it chromium-carbide and often includes pretty large aggregates.
154CM bumps this up to ~17.5% carbide, still all chromium, with a proportionate increase in aggregates. Toughness remains about the same despite this increase in carbide volume, the micron-scale is hard to assess with controlled testing. Keep in mind that these are "premium" ingot steels.

Using PM, CPM-154 maintains that same 17-18% carbide volume but presents increased toughness and wear at the micron scale due to the reduction in size and more homogenous distribution of the carbides (smaller aggregates).


Now take S30V or S35VN - these are 14.5% and 14.0% carbide steels, less than CPM-154 but with higher wear resistance and maybe a tiny bit more toughness that is not likely to be noticed. Why the jump in wear-resistance? Approximately 4% of that volume (~30% of the carbides in the steel) is MC-type vanadium carbide = smaller, harder/stronger/more wear-resistant than the chromium carbide in CPM-154. However, with that increased toughness and wear-resistance comes an edge less susceptible to grinding - it is harder to produce, more resistant to sharpening stones. Nevertheless, differences in sharpening on the micron-level using modern hones of appropriate grit of diamond or CBN will be un-noticeable, the abrasives are just so much harder than the steel matrix.

What about CPM-20CV? With it's increased carbon as well as carbide-formers, this steel should be 17-18% carbide just like CPM-154, but again utilizing MC-type vanadium carbides in place of some chromium carbide = more wear-resistance, more toughness (though probably not noticeable), and more difficulty grinding but about the same sharpening on diamond or CBN hones.


So again, if folk are finding CPM-154 tougher than CPM-20CV or even S30V, I would wonder at the phenomenon and what the differences are in HT protocol and final HRC since the latter steels should be both tougher and more wear-resistant than the former at a given hardness, though again the difference in toughness would be very hard to assess with such fine adjustments in carbide type/content. In comparison, CPM-3V at 60Rc presents ~100 J impact toughness, but it also is only ~5% carbide and mostly VC-type. A2 tool steel has similar carbide volume to 3V but presents ~53 J impact toughness at 60Rc and only ~half the wear-resistance. THAT is a difference.
 
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So again, if folk are finding CPM-154 tougher than CPM-20CV or even S30V, I would wonder at the phenomenon and what the differences are in HT protocol and final HRC since the latter steels should be both tougher and more wear-resistant than the former at a given hardness, though again the difference in toughness would be very hard to assess with such fine adjustments in carbide type/content. In comparison, CPM-3V at 60Rc presents ~100 J impact toughness, but it also is only ~5% carbide and mostly VC-type. A2 tool steel has similar carbide volume to 3V but presents ~53 J impact toughness at 60Rc and only ~half the wear-resistance. THAT is a difference.

Extremely interesting post, thank you ^

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "on paper" definition of toughness. I based my earlier statement on a graph that showed CPM 154 having twice the "toughness" of CPM 20CV.

I still believe that CPM 154 will be perfect for people who don't need steel so tough that they can cut bolts in half (3V) at the expense of corrosion resistance, or so abrasion resistant that they can cut cardboard boxes for days on end (20CV) at the expense of sharpenability.
 
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