Customs a level below production blades ?

Cliff Stamp · Dec 8, 1999

In a recent thread in the Review forum there were some interesting points raised amid the flaming :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001081.html

One that caught my eye was something Darrel Ralph said :

I dont think there is a custom maker alive that can make a knife as good as reeve without the cnc machine and blade grinders.

The main problem I have with that is that it seems to me that custom blades should be individually inspected by the maker and dealer. Isn't this part of why you would pay much more for custom work? Doesn't this guarantee a higher standard of production?

-Cliff

Les Robertson · Dec 8, 1999

Cliff,

Makes do inspect their work, I know I inspect it before I send it out as well.

Are there factory knives as good as some custom knives, yes.

Are there some custom knives that are superior to most of the custom knives made, yes.

Are the majority of custom knives superior to factory or mass produced knives, yes.

As to Darrel's statement I would have to disagree with it. I know makers who can grind a blade as good or better than any machine out there. The machine is only as good as the person who programed it.

Darrel uses Chris as an example. Reeve Knives only makes one style of folder. Most makers do not spend 8 years making only one style of knife. So yes, the Sebenza should be perfect. Don't forget this knife started out life as a custom knife.

I think what Darrel is alluding to is the fact that Reeve can turn out thousands of Sebenza's each year. A custom maker cannot do this, even if they do incoporate some of the technology out there.

There is a place for all types of knives in the market. While custom knives may not be everyone's choice. Factory knife buyers need only to attend a show like the SHOT Show to see what is driving the factory knife market.
You guessed it CUSTOM KNIVES and their MAKERS". Or open a current issue of Blade Magazine and look at the ads for the factory knives. Most of the biggest ads have a custom knife makers name in the ad somewhere.

Almost every inovation in factory knives over the last 10 years, has been bought, borrowed or stolen from the custom knife market.

For example Darrel and I came up with the Krait Neck and Boot Knife. Smith and Wesson STOLE this and produced a knife that looks almost exaclty what Darrel and I designed.

You would think a company that revolutionized handguns could think of their own knife designs.

This is part of the reason I have no interest in factory knives. The majority of what is out there right now are designs and design elements that myself and a large number of makers I work with were doing on the custom side of the house 2-5 years ago.

To my mind the factories are using old designs, lesser quality materials and the makers reputation to sell their knives.

However, this is the nature of the beast with factory knives. They are doing what business people have done for centuries. Taking a exclusive or high dollar custom product, and have figured out a way to make it cheaply enough to provide it to a mass audience.

All knives are tied together with a common history. The factories main contribution right now is very high tech machines and mass marketing.

Im glad these factories are doing such a good job and charging such high prices. Every year I pick up hundreds of customers who "used" to buy factory knives.

Cliff, as you well know the ulitimate inspector of the knife is you, the potential or actual owner of any given knife.

Are there custom knives with mistakes, yes. The best thing you can do if you get one that is not up to your standard is send it back to the maker and explain what is wrong. Ninety percent of the time that maker will send you a replacement knife that is much better.

Custom knife makers, unlike machines do have bad days, do make mistakes.

But Cliff brings up a valid point. The custom knife should be better. If it's not, send the knife back.

Les

Brian_Turner · Dec 8, 1999

What is perfect? An original oil painting will have a rough, textured surface from the artist's layering of the paint. Do we condemn it because it's not perfectly smooth like a print? On ratty canvas rather than pristine acid-free paper?

To me, the "roughness" of the original is character, the "smoothness" of the print is sterile.

Ask an audiophile whether tube sound or solid state sound is superior, or regarding analog's indescrete values vs. digital. Same with live performance vs. studio recordings. It will ultimately boil down to the "produced" vs. the "created", and be subjectively judged.

"Perfection" in artwork is in the eye of the beholder.

K Robinson · Dec 8, 1999

Well said Les.
See thread titled Darrel Ralph Krait to see the customer service level that you can expect from custom makers,as you will see I had not had a chance to contact Les about the problem before Darrel responded to my post.
Try to get a factory to turn over the repair of your production knife in 1 or 2 days(not to say that a factory hasent done this but I would venture to say that thats the exception not the rule)
Darrel inspected my knife before it shipped and then Les inspected it when he received it
thay could not have seen the problem as it hadent happend yet.

Always buy the best and you never have to wander what the best is like.

Kevin

Paracelsus · Dec 8, 1999

Les, thanks for your comments. I like and agree with what you said.

I think Brian Turner hit the spot right on. Imperfections are part of any hand-worked Art. Among many makers, I am collecting the work of a couple of relatively new makers whose work is Far from perfect. It is also far from expensive. I do not expect perfection in these knives. Over time, I hope my collection will represent the improvement of these makers skill and artistry.

I expect something approaching perfection only when I buy the work of well-known long-time makers and I pay a lot of money for the piece. I would not keep an expensive knife with obvious major flaws. Otherwise, you would Only be paying for the makers name and a reputation that is not deserved.

Paracelsus

UW Mitch · Dec 8, 1999

Brian_Turner said just what I was about to say. In an essay I wrote last night, I likened production knives to reprints of originals. A custom knife IS an original. Why buy a print of a Picasso, if you could have an original. My production peices are my daily users, and when I get customs, I will treasure them that much more, because they were made for me, by someone who cares, not just run off on an assembly line.
As far as quality goes, well that's like anything else. Experts will no doubt produce something better than a machine, and beginners will struggle a bit, but get better over time.
So I conclude, NO, customs are definately not a level below production. Even if a makers technical accuracy isn't yet perfect, it is the customer communication, and the handmade care that trancends the custom knife into a much higher plane.

My $0.02,
Mitch

Lynn Grififth Knives · Dec 8, 1999

This is one of the best threads I have seen on Bladeforums. Great comments from everyone. Thank you Cliff, for addressing Darrels comment. Thank you to all that posted there very intelligent responses.

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Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

Darrel Ralph · Dec 8, 1999

All the comments here are the exacting point I was trying to make in the flame session mentioned above.
The sebenza line may only be as good as the machine operator Cliff... BUT day in and day out the machine and its operator will kill a man like it did John Henry OK?

Custom knives have a aura and flavor that cannot be found in a production knife.
Each and every apogee (being the model knife of my making at this time) is different. Each and every Sebenza is damn close to the same with very small changes.

As for grinding... walter brend comes to mind hehehe Great grinder.

Also I wonder if you feel that the CR Sebenza is a custom made knife? That may be where the line is not clear for you.
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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 08 December 1999).]

PhilL · Dec 8, 1999

Threads like this, are exactly why I came to the Forums in the first place. Thank you one and all.

Cliff Stamp · Dec 8, 1999

Les, I can see quite obviously as you indicate the benefit the industry has because of the work of custom makers. They can obviously do research and improve much faster than a production shop. However to be clearer I have little or no value for the artistic quality of knives. I realize that some people greatly enjoy it as I realize that some people actually like the taste of American beer. It is just not for me.

I don't mean to say that I don't appreciate the value of the artistic side, but simply that I put a much higher value on the functional side of things. I will occasionally have some work done on the visual side (I like stag for example), but would never buy a custom blade because of esoteric qualites like "a makers touch" or similar even though I can appreciate it for being what it is. The primary drawing power for me in a blade has to be function, the custom blade would have to actually be better at being a knife than the production version for me to want to have it.

So back to the question, are their custom blades out their that are "functionally" better than a Sebenza or does the strength of Reeves production abilities makes this impossible? Once again Les makes a very strong point in that the Sebenza was a custom design and has been refined for many a year so it may not be really fair to compare a maker's ability by judging the work of one of his knives against the Sebenza, calling the latter a production knife.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 08 December 1999).]

Darrel Ralph · Dec 8, 1999

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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 08 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 08 December 1999).]

tbark · Dec 8, 1999

In my openion comparing Custom Knives to factory is like comparing a corvete to a volkswagon but that is my openion you dont see a lot of factory knives embelished with fancy filework mokume or Devon Thomas Damascus not to mention as much as 3/8 thick bladesteel with the painstaking sweat of the custom maker

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tbark

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 8, 1999

Great thread Cliff.

First off, all sebenza blades are hand ground.

Second, I don't think there is a BETTER MADE KNIFE than a sebenza anywhere near it's price range. Custom makers just cannot compete with the accuracy of CNC machines and the tolerances Chris Reeve holds. Also Sebenzas are very consistent. Custom knives as well as production knives vary much more from one knife to the next.

The fact that Chris has been making one folder for 8 years and that it should be perfect is true. But even if he did design a new folder, it would still be better made than most customs out there. This is not because he is more skilled than other custom makers. It is just becuase of his manufacture methods and expensive machinery.

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Johnny
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Les Robertson · Dec 9, 1999

Cliff,

I would match anything from Kit Carson against anything that Reeve has or could make. Im using Kit as he is close in price to Reeve.

As for pure technical ability in a tactical folder. Any tactical folder that Dave Broadwell, Joel Chamblin, John W. Smith, Kit Carson, Walter Brend, Jim Minnick, Bob Terzuola, Ernie Emerson (when he actually takes his time) and RJ Martin. Will meet or exceed a folder that Chris Reeve can make.

I am not necessarily refering to the Sebenza. I will put any of these makers head to head with any custom knife that Reeve could make without a multi-year head start.

Cliff I know you are into performance, I would recommend the Martin Q30 or Q36, anything by Lightfoot, Carson or Brend. I would bet that the Brend and Emerson would fair well also.

Cliff, you come from one point of view which I value. However, the artistic, asthetic and pride in ownership can not be over looked. Sadly the Reeve Sebenza has none of these. Like it or not, this is part of why people will spend thousands of dollars on a custom knife.

Johnny,

Yes, the blades are hand ground. Exactly who grinds these blades??? The only thing we know for sure is that it is not Chris Reeve.

Johnny, if the machine is making the frame and the blade blank, and someone else is hand grinding each blade and someone else is doing the assembly. Perhaps you are giving the credit to the wrong person.

As you said "Also Sebenzas are very consistent". Isnt that like saying Xerox copies look exaclty like each other. After all that is what he is producing....copy after copy after copy after copy.. well you get the idea.

There is no doubt the Sebenza is a work horse.

Johnny, which custom folders do you own that you have compared the Sebenza to?

By the way, we seem to be focusing on the Sebenza. Is there another factory knife that someone would like to mention?

As for saying theun cryrogenically treated. As Chris told me at the SHOT Show he puts his blades in the freezer. That boys and girls a cUnfortunately, according to Chris Reeve,

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Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

stjames · Dec 9, 1999

However, the artistic, asthetic (sic) and pride in ownership can not be over looked. Sadly the Reeve Sebenza has none of these. Like it or not, this is part of why people will spend thousands of dollars on a custom knife.

If you think that owners of the Sebenza don't take pride in it, then you are sadly mistaken, Les, and have not been paying very close attention to the forums since their very inception. You might feel that it is misplaced, but it is very genuine. If you dont care for the artistic or aesthetic values of the knife, that is, of course, a matter of personal taste and opinion.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

RKnight · Dec 9, 1999

As for the machine being only as good the person who programmed the software, once the software is dialed in, the results will be consistent.

As for the Sebenza, it is remarkably consistent, single design or not.

Aura? Well perhaps not as mystical/ephemeral as a full custom, but absolute faith in the mechanism brings a certain sense of security which is priceless.

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Ron Knight
Scottsdale, Arizona

RKnight · Dec 9, 1999

Furthermore, the fact that the Sebenza is not a full custom has been brought up many times. Ad nauseum.

I suspect there are other makers out there using help (like grinding) to produce their prolific output.

How come they're not outed? Personal axe to grind?

Or an attempt to downgrade the Sebenza, which is clearly a threat to some custom makers.

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Ron Knight
Scottsdale, Arizona

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 9, 1999

Scott Cook and another of Chris' workers grinds the blades. They are still hand ground. If the quality of the blades is still there I do not really care who grinds it. This is my opinion.

Johnny, if the machine is making the frame and the blade blank, and someone else is hand grinding each blade and someone else is doing the assembly. Perhaps you are giving the credit to the wrong person.

If the end product is better than anything one man can make, why does it matter? To me it does not. I know some people do care if one person makes the whole knife, and there is nothing wrong with that. To those people they need to look elsewhere.

As you said "Also Sebenzas are very consistent". Isnt that like saying Xerox copies look exaclty like each other. After all that is what he is producing....copy after copy after copy after copy.. well you get the idea.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And what is wrong with this? You make it seem as if it is a bad thing. I want to be able to buy a knife and knowing that I do not have to look through a few of the same model just to find that "good" one.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I own no custom knives. I've handled many custom knives and most did not impress me. There are however, a few exceptions. Mechanically, the other customs in the sebenza's price range just do not stack up. Many would agree with me on this, as I've talked to many. I am not the only one that thinks this.

I do not doubt custom makers in the sebenzas price range cannot make as good a knife. Kit Carson for example. But I do doubt how consistently they can do this.

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Johnny
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Hugo · Dec 9, 1999

Hi!
This has turned to be a great thread. But it's getting to be a little bit of that 'Sebenza vs. customs'...
Seems that many argue that because Sebenza is made by many people and with CNC machines it's not custom anymore and so on... and therefore it lacks many of custom folders qualities. But see what you guys thought about custom makers and CNC machines in another very good thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000504.html
There everybody seemed to be very open minded about the new technology. Maybe Chris Reeve is showing custom makers the future? As Les noted the Sebenza started of as a custom knife. Now after CNC and all, people are still debating whether it's production or custom (I think CRK call them semi-production).
Many custom makers offer now a specific range of knives. So in other words they make multiple knives of few models - each one a bit different and probably with some personal modifications for customer. Also CRK is now offering some options on the knives (damascus, wood inlays, dual thump studs, decorations). So what's the difference? He uses CNC and makes many more knives? What's the difference when the custom makers turn to CNC machines? Will Sebenza then be considered a custom knife again? Hopefully custom makers are not forced (by markets, demand and prices and competition) to take that step!

Hugo.

ps. What comes to Sebenza and pride in ownership - just look at the all the Sebenza followers around here. It's definitely there. Artistic and asthetic qualities... I, for one, don't know of any more beautifully designed folder than Sebenza (well maybe the small Sebenza

) - but those are personal things. Everybody has their likings. I'm just glad we have lots to choose from.

[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 09 December 1999).]

Cliff Stamp · Dec 9, 1999

Johnny :

I've handled many custom knives and most did not impress me. There are however, a few exceptions. Mechanically, the other customs in the sebenza's price range just do not stack up.

This is what I was talking about. Regardless of the method used by Chris, how does the end result compare to the custom blades (using the guild's defination of custom). So far there have been a number of people supporting the Sebenza function wise, is there anyone (not a dealer, sorry Les) who thinks that their custom is a better blade?

Les, I just looked up the Q36, very nice looking grind and handle. Is the locking mechanism a liner? If so how recessed is it? How stable is it under heavy use? I am not talking about ability to resist breaking but from disengaging.

-Cliff

Customs a level below production blades ?

Cliff Stamp

Les Robertson

Brian_Turner

K Robinson

Paracelsus

UW Mitch

Lynn Grififth Knives

Darrel Ralph

PhilL

Cliff Stamp

Darrel Ralph

tbark

Spammer. Have I told you about my crappy auction s

JoHnYKwSt

Les Robertson

stjames

Sebenzanista

RKnight

RKnight

JoHnYKwSt

Hugo

Cliff Stamp