Did I just waste my money on the EdgePro Apex?

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Jul 22, 2009
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Considering the few problems I've had with it and the constant need for maintenance(flattening the stones) and lack of detailed instructions(should I bother trying to flatten the fine stones?), I was wondering if $232 was too much for it.

I've found the DMT Aligner for a mere $45 plus shipping and maybe an extra coarse stone for another $17. Since it uses a clamp system, it seems a bit more precise and less tedious than the EdgePro.

Since the EdgePro has you simply rest the blade on a table, keeping a steady angle can be somewhat difficult. On most folding knives, there are very few flat angles to rest the blade on, which means you have to hold the knife up yourself in order to keep a consistent angle with the given settings, assuming you don't rock the knife on any other bevels on the knife. If you rest the knife on the opposite backbevel, you don't know exactly what the difference in angles are, and so you don't know exactly what angle you're sharpening at. Not to mention that if the backbevel isn't exactly the same on both sides, the angle on each side could change as well, or you could scuff the backbevel instead of the primary bevel when sharpening at extreme low angles.

The only obvious advantage I see is that the EdgePro has a much wider range of angles than the DMT Aligner, which may or may not be useful for the average folding knife user, as I doubt anyone goes beyond 15-20 degrees per side.

Ben Dale assures me that diamond sharpeners aren't all that great, as they wear out very quickly due to the diamond particles "sticking" to the soft steel and breaking out of the matrix very quickly. He says that his use with the DMT Super Coarse only lasted 10 knives. I personally think he might've mashed on the stone with extreme pressure, thus "breaking" the stone with the first few swipes.

Of coarse, I seriously began to doubt his claim when he said that the 120 grit silicon carbide stone cut faster than the DMT Super Coarse.

But on the other hand, I only need a DMT stone to lower the primary bevel on some new knives. After that, I doubt I'd need the super fast cutting speeds of a diamond stone. Though I personally don't look forward to spending another week trying to lower the angle on my Kershaw Shallot with S110V from over 24 degrees on one side down to 18 degrees, especially when resting it on only an inch of flat bevel and trying to keep it perfectly level while mashing on it with a 120 grit stone.
 
You don't need the diamond stones at all, but they are faster. The Super Fine diamond stone is more coarse than the 120 Coarse Grit aluminum oxide stone on the harder steels.

The diamond stones have lasted over 30 knives so far for me, but I do feel them getting finer and finer (also slower and slower cutting). The Super Fine is begining to be finer than the 120 grit and match the 220 grit now. Of course, I don't use any pressure, just the weight of the stone itself.

Aligning any knife on the EdgePro is easy. Do you have any specific examples in mind of knives that don't work with it?
 
My Endura 4 with ZDP-189 ran into the most problems.

The first is typically the grinding near the tang of the blade, where the knife is thickest. I have yet to figure out a way to grind the area to a burr without overlapping the grinds, thus resulting in a small area to be superflat. If the stubborn area where it refuses to burr is less than an inch along the blade, simple back and forth grinding without moving the stone along the knife will result in grinding an area that is already brought to a burr, causing the overlap. Not to mention that even with the 120 grit stone, it took over 6 hours to lower the angle from the factory edge to about 10-15 degrees per side.

And as I said, resting the knife on the backbevel(which is IMO the most stable bevel with the most surface area to rest on) will cause problems forcing you to guess on what the actual angle is. It causes further problems when the backbevel is uneven on each side. When attempting to put a super low angle on the edge(I believe it was 15 degrees per side, but I'm not 100% sure), the grinding went as expected on one side, but on the other side, I ended up grinding the backbevel instead of the primary.

I'm currently considering lowering the edge angle on my Kershaw Shallot with S110V and a recurve, but I wanted to be sure of the angle before monkeying around with it.
I recall reading something about grinding a small portion of the knife while resting it on the flat bevel, and then scuffing that same mark while resting it on the backbevel by raising the angle. Of course, I'm not too comfortable about doing that test(which might be unreliable) on an expensive or limited run blade.

The diamond stone seemed to cut fairly fast, but the 120 grit seemed faster. Of course, I was using it on a cheap $7 paring knife, so the results might be different on a steel with HRC60 or higher.
 
I think that for the average user the sharpmaker does an excellent job. If you look at most professionals they all seem to sharpen freestyle. You have way more control. Diamonds are definitley the way to go. So for the average user a couple of DMT stones in different grits and a sharpmaker and your in business for alot less money than the edgepro. plus you don't have to do all that screwing around with soaking in water trying to find the angle you want, its just too much fuss and bother.
 
Greetings Noctus3880: IMO Rooster is quite right. Many sharpening professionals use a free style method and prefer diamond hones. If you have the talent, time and patience it is a highly satisfying and worthwhile skill. I hope to eventually get to that point. At this time in my learning curve however, I'm not there yet. I envy those among us who can sharpen freehand with professional result. To compensate for my lack of skill and experience with freehand sharpening, I have and use a Sharpmaker, a Gato Diamond hone system and an Edgepro Apex. Objectively, you probably did not waste you money on the Edgepro. Others on this forum, many who have forgotten more than I hope to know, have purchased, used and find the Edgepro to be an excellent sharpen system. The following is based upon my limited knowledge and skills as they may relate to your concerns: Unless you have been really leaning on the stones "constant" re-surfacing may not be as necessary as it seems. They do not have to be perfectly flat in order to cut a good edge. If you wish to see if your stones are worn enough to require leveling, put a sheet of medium grit sandpaper on a flat surface. A pane of glass is good. Draw a line down the middle of the stone from end to end with a sharpie marker. Rub the stone lightly up and down the flat sand paper. Any area where the marker is not scuffed up by the paper is where the stone is dished (lower). Apply slight pressure to the backing plate while continuing to rub in a CIRCULAR motion, concentrating the pressure in those areas of the stone that have already had the marker line abraded. This will level the high spots to match the lowest point and remove as little stone surface as possible. Once all the marker line is equally scuffed up, the stone is flat again. Regarding the Endura 4 in ZDP-189: The Edgepro angle adjustment, once properly set at the angle you choose does not change. The tip to tang contour of your blade unfortunately may. A 15 degree stone arm angle that perfectly touches the cutting edge in the middle of the blade may be riding up on a section of the primary grind when moved closer to the tang. It can vary quite a bit depending on the blade configuration and the equality of the bevel ground on each knife . Of the ones I have and those that I have examined, Spiderco bevels are very consistent but few things in life are perfect. This condition is even more apparent when using a guided rod system that locks the blade in a clamp. Logically the fastest removal of steel will take place when moving the largest area of the stone over the smallest area of steel. I have found that by limiting the amount of blade edge that overhangs the Edgepro table edge to less than 1/64th inch helps maximize my efforts. Although NOT RECOMMENDED in the manufacturer's instructions, by applying COMPARATIVELY more pressure on the side of the stone that contacts the area closest to the tang will remove more metal from the thicker section and less from the adjacent area while using the same number of strokes. This has reduced or eliminated the flat spots for me. It requires control and finesse. Through experience free hand sharpeners may unconsciously do this without realizing it. Although many of us approach sharpening as a science it still has a component of art in it's execution. ZDP and S110v are hard steels. That is what you paid the bucks for. You are not just sharpening, you are reprofiling steel that is about 63 rockwell or higher. This requires precise repetition of cutting strokes, consistant angles and time. The Edgepro will supply the precision you supply the time. YMMV OldDude1
 
Still waiting for a tip on how to compensate for the difference in angles caused by resting the blade on its backbevel.

While I'm sure it's rewarding to do freehand sharpening, I'm also equally as sure that it will cost considerable time and money.
The cost would include replacing the knives you break while practicing(I'm sure there's also a significant difference between a cheap $5 knife and a $100 folding knife), and replacing the stones themselves.
 
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Still waiting for a tip on how to compensate for the difference in angles caused by resting the blade on its backbevel.

While I'm sure it's rewarding to do freehand sharpening, I'm also equally as sure that it will cost considerable time and money.
The cost would include replacing the knives you break while practicing(I'm sure there's also a significant difference between a cheap $5 knife and a $100 folding knife), and replacing the stones themselves.
Even a kid wouldn't break a knife while sharpening it with stones, 3sets of waterstones would probably last you atleast 3years depending on how much you sharpen, 300 + 1200 + 6000grit stones would be great for beginners. .
 
Still waiting for a tip on how to compensate for the difference in angles caused by resting the blade on its backbevel.

While I'm sure it's rewarding to do freehand sharpening, I'm also equally as sure that it will cost considerable time and money.
The cost would include replacing the knives you break while practicing(I'm sure there's also a significant difference between a cheap $5 knife and a $100 folding knife), and replacing the stones themselves.

Freehand sharpening is not as difficult as you may think. However, it is indeed expensive to get a full set of stones. I like the larger 3" inch wide stones which cost $$$.

You need to grind the edge first, and measure the angle with a caliper and some math. Then you can adjust based on that.
 
You need to grind the edge first, and measure the angle with a caliper and some math. Then you can adjust based on that.

I have been sharpening freehand since I was 7 years old. Never had to use calipers and math equations. Why would you do this? Being able to look at a blade and feeling it on the stone until it is right is what freehand work is all about. The angle you get is irrelevant as long as it is the same on both sides and cuts the way you want it to. If one angle does not suit you, then change to another. You can feel how different steels react on the stone or diamond. You should be able to get a good idea of the hardness of a steel just by the way it feels when sharpening. Freehand is about feeling and knowing what a steel is doing, not calipers and math.
 
I have been sharpening freehand since I was 7 years old. Never had to use calipers and math equations. Why would you do this? Being able to look at a blade and feeling it on the stone until it is right is what freehand work is all about. The angle you get is irrelevant as long as it is the same on both sides and cuts the way you want it to. If one angle does not suit you, then change to another. You can feel how different steels react on the stone or diamond. You should be able to get a good idea of the hardness of a steel just by the way it feels when sharpening. Freehand is about feeling and knowing what a steel is doing, not calipers and math.

I agree with you but the OP asked about determining the angle.
 
I agree with you but the OP asked about determining the angle.
This is how I measure blade angles, I have this on a cabinet behind my workbench for sharpening.

tn_DSC06517.jpg


To use it I would measure the width of the blade(not thickness) and I would divide it by one of those numbers to get the angle, then that number would be the distance between the stone and middle of the spine for that angle.

For example if I have a blade that is 6cm in width and I wanted a 20degree angle/side, I would divide it by 3, then I would get 2cm, then I would put a ruler vertical to the stone, then I lay the blade on the stone and raise the spine till the middle of it is at 2cm in height, that would be 20degrees/side.
 
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Freehand sharpening is not as difficult as you may think. However, it is indeed expensive to get a full set of stones. I like the larger 3" inch wide stones which cost $$$.

You need to grind the edge first, and measure the angle with a caliper and some math. Then you can adjust based on that.
Well, I believe a full set of Shapton waterstones from 120 grit to 12,000 grit would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $600-$650, and I'm not sure I really want to spend that much for the sake of a hobby.

If I could make some money off of it, that would be great. Though I'm not sure how you would go about starting that whole thing. I doubt I could just walk up to the chef in a restaurant and tell him, "Hey buddy, I'll sharpen your knives for 10 bucks a piece".

Not to mention that to reach that level of sharpening, I'll need years of experience to get good at it.

The angles aren't as important to me as keeping the same angle on each side. If I can do at least that consistently, I doubt I'll care much about the exact angle number.

For the moment, I think I should probably wait a few months before blowing my money on luxury items on a pure impulse.

Plus, my mom insists that the $5 dual-sided aluminum oxide stone she got from Chinatown works just fine <_<
 
Well, I believe a full set of Shapton waterstones from 120 grit to 12,000 grit would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $600-$650, and I'm not sure I really want to spend that much for the sake of a hobby.

If I could make some money off of it, that would be great. Though I'm not sure how you would go about starting that whole thing. I doubt I could just walk up to the chef in a restaurant and tell him, "Hey buddy, I'll sharpen your knives for 10 bucks a piece".

Not to mention that to reach that level of sharpening, I'll need years of experience to get good at it.

The angles aren't as important to me as keeping the same angle on each side. If I can do at least that consistently, I doubt I'll care much about the exact angle number.

For the moment, I think I should probably wait a few months before blowing my money on luxury items on a pure impulse.

Plus, my mom insists that the $5 dual-sided aluminum oxide stone she got from Chinatown works just fine <_<
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Water-Stones-P25C25.aspx

Norton waterstones 120grit, 1000, 4000, 8000 for $200, or you could get just the 120, 1000, 4000 for 130bucks and use a strop instead of the 8000grit stone.

EDIT: A $5 dual sided aluminium oxide stone will work fine, I can get a edge that will shave from a double sided $2 whetstone, or from a brick and some cardboard(although I'm not suggesting that you should sharpen with a brick and cardboard lol).
 
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Still waiting for a tip on how to compensate for the difference in angles caused by resting the blade on its backbevel.

Don't press. Just hold it steady and quit worrying about it. The Edgepro is easily the best manual sharpener on the market. The learning curve is pretty short. It won't be long and you'll be sharpening just fine.

My one tip is to quit worrying about the angle. Just pick an ange based on the colored bars and grind the edge to that angle. Then you can set up more quickly in the future.

Nothing is faster than waterstones.
 
I don't know...

Usually if it seems like I can get the same thing for a cheaper price, I automatically think, "what's the catch here?"

With the cheap $5 aluminum oxide stone in my kitchen, I assume it's the grit size consistency and the abrasive material.

I can't help but think that there might be some sort of tradeoff with the Norton waterstones.

Say, abrasive particles by volume. Or clay matrix VS ceramic.

In any case, waterstones are said to have the fastest cutting action second only to diamond, and the grit sizes are available in fine enough grits to provide more edge polishing than other sharpening abrasives(though the $400-$500 30,000 grit stone is enough to keep me awake at nights).

I also believe that having more "steps" between grits will help achieve a more polished and sharp edge. Say from 1,000 to 1,500 to 2,000 to 5,000 to 8,000 as opposed to 1,000 to 4,000 to 8,000.
 
I don't know...

Usually if it seems like I can get the same thing for a cheaper price, I automatically think, "what's the catch here?"

With the cheap $5 aluminum oxide stone in my kitchen, I assume it's the grit size consistency and the abrasive material.

I can't help but think that there might be some sort of tradeoff with the Norton waterstones.

Say, abrasive particles by volume. Or clay matrix VS ceramic.

In any case, waterstones are said to have the fastest cutting action second only to diamond, and the grit sizes are available in fine enough grits to provide more edge polishing than other sharpening abrasives(though the $400-$500 30,000 grit stone is enough to keep me awake at nights).

I also believe that having more "steps" between grits will help achieve a more polished and sharp edge. Say from 1,000 to 1,500 to 2,000 to 5,000 to 8,000 as opposed to 1,000 to 4,000 to 8,000.
If you're going from 1000grit to 4000grit, it will take a bit more time than going from 1000-1500-2000-4000, but in the end, they will both have the same result and level of sharpness, but taking care of 2 extra stones will take up more time aswell.

The 30000grit stone from Shapton is expensive, but there are cheaper alternatives, some .5 micron CrO on cardboard would work nearly as good and it is equivalent to 30000grit in Japanese waterstones, it would only cost 10bucks for the compound and a couple bucks if you decide to use leather rather than cardboard.
 
If you're going from 1000grit to 4000grit, it will take a bit more time than going from 1000-1500-2000-4000,

In my experience exactly the opposite is true. A jump of 5X or 6X seems to be the most time-saving approach. Smaller jumps just get more stones into play and larger ones have you grinding seemingly forever.
 
While I'm sure it's rewarding to do freehand sharpening, I'm also equally as sure that it will cost considerable time and money. The cost would include replacing the knives you break while practicing
I don't know how you can break a knife while freehand sharpening.
 
I just went to a web site and got some quick prices on some stones that will let you get started freehand sharpening. This is not a cheap set nor a pricey one either. Just a set that should get excellent results and last an extremely long time. A DMT coarse/fine duo stone, this will let you profile a really dull blade, about 70.00 bucks. Spyderco medium ceramic about 45.00 bucks. A spyderco fine same price, and for that ultra edge a spyderco ultra fine about 60.00 bucks. These stones will sharpen any of the new
"super steels" and no water soaking, setting up jigs ,or any of the prep time required with jig systems. the sharpmaker is also excellent for about 50.. bucks.
 
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