Extreme Judgement : just some spec's and a little splitting

[Steelhed]

Cliff wrote - "This is also performance, as is buying for investiment. You expect the knife to perform by increasing in value, or it performs by simply being pleasing to look at. Both of these can be overhyped as well. It is hard to argue the former though as it all just subjective, but again you can ask for comparisons.

"Much like for example if you asked someone what XXX steak house was like and they replied it was the best they had every tried, but then admitted with further questioning that the only other "steak" they had tried was from McDonalds."

It was still the best they had ever tried. Now if they had said they preferred McDonalds you might question their taste, but you can't question if they truly think it is the best to them.

No, buying something for aesthetic reasons has nothing to do with performance. Performance can be measured, as you said, with some "ranking system." A knife's aesthetic appeal can only be determined subjectively by each individual. Yes, you could impanel a group of judges and they could select the most beautiful knife according to some set of criteria, but in the end it is all subjective, just as a beauty pageant selection is subjective.

Performance in regards to strength, toughness, ductility and so on can be measured against an objective standard, or against other knives. Collector value can be measured against other collector knives or collectible items, but this is a different form of performance, as we both said, from the type of performance you spoke about before. It is difficult to hype aesthetics because of its subjectivity. It is fairly easy to hype material performance because most folks won't take the time to do the objective comparisons. Hyping collectibility is somewhere inbetween. You can hype it, but it is fairly easy to track if an item's collector value is rising or falling. Just sell it and see what you get for it compared to what you paid for it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A knife's aesthetic appeal can only be determined subjectively ...

There is actually a tremendous amount of science to physical appeal in people. It was started by da Vinci, but I was reading some of the newer research awhile ago as one of my friends is involved in it. It has to do with symmetry, and other things which are almost universally appealing.

This being said, you can get hype for the same reasons, failure to offer comparisons. Which knives do you not find visually appealing. this then gives some merit to your opinion. If you for example love every painting you have ever seen, then your praise isn't worth much.

But it isn't like there is much debate along these lines anyway, hype is more associated with physical performance, cutting abiilty, durability, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - Yes, symmetry, color, proportion, texture all play a role in determining aesthetic values, but none of these values negates or supports an invidual's contention that something is or is not beautiful. Social dynamics plays a role, and those dynamics may be driven by "universal" appeal. However, if I say a particular knife is beautiful and you say it is ugly neither one of us is wrong. That's the politics of experience. If you say your knife is sharper than my knife then we can test the edge and measure which one really is the sharper - although we'll have to agree before hand on what constitures sharpness, i.e., cuts thread with x grams of force, cuts x meters of carpet under x amount of force, edge measures x number of microns at its narrowest, etc.

As for hype, there are four kinds (at least). One is when you say a product can do something it really can't. Two is when you say a product can do something it can, but what it can do is really not all that special, you just make it sound that way, and three is when you say a product can do something it can compared to a product that can't, but never specifiy that product so that the claim can be tested, e.g., my knife is 50% tougher than the next closest competitor. And finally, it is hype when you say your product can do something so vague and subjective that comparisons and measurements are impossible, e.g., my knife is the best fighter to have for barroom knife fights. Perhaps you or others can think of some more.

 

[Jeff Clark]

True hype is when you say that the knife will make you a better person. I plagerized this off the net:
"...to distinguish between hype and hyperbole (from
the Greek for "excess"). Hyperbole is a legitimate artistic tool, a form of
exaggeration to enlarge and emphasise a subject, in order to make its
detail more accessible or note its importance. (It is unlikely, for
example, that Helen of Troy's face actually launched a thousand ships, but
it is "true" in the context of telling that history through poetry.)

Hype, on the other hand, is a child of capitalism, of the big sell. Its
excess is used for the purpose of artificially creating demand: no
commodity appears simply as the product of labour with a use value.

Whether a shampoo, a laxative or a car, all products are inflated with
promises of greater self-awareness, personal wealth, sexual gratification,
higher social eminence etc.

Everything is "the greatest" — music is "majestic and haunting", novels
are "brilliant and stunning", television programs are "unforgettably life-
changing". "

 

[thombrogan]

Wow, Jeff. Any definitions not from Webster's Marxist/Collectivist/Statist edition?

 

[Steelhed]

Hey, this thread is beginning to sound like it belongs in the political forum.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I like the promotion idea, but it fails to include some of the ideas referenced in the above. For example a novice user could vastly overhype a knife without actually meaning to, and with no actual desire to promote anything. This however is usually not a big problem, but the defination Jeff states has the crux. It is pretty easy to differentiate between the two.

-Cliff

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

For example a novice user could vastly overhype a knife without actually meaning to

By novice user do mean the type of novice that would do something dumb with a knife? Maybe something as dumb as chop concrete with a knife?

 

[akee]

Life is full of paradoxes....It all depends on the readers interpretation.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

By novice user do mean ...

Someone without the experience to put use into perspective. For example cut a 2x4 and the knife doesn't go dull so then start exclaiming how it is the greatest knife ever made. Essentially as noted in the above it is hype by creating the impression of superior performance and for a novice it is often unintentionally as it is simply the first high end knife they have seen.

Maybe something as dumb as chop concrete with a knife?

Always wash your trees before cutting them, never cut a piece of wood picked up off the ground without washing it down, never cut brush without extensively checking it before hand for inclusions, never had an axe downglace when chopping down a tree, never used a knife to dig in rocky soil, never used a knife to dig a hole in ice (can contain rocks, ice is actually really soft), etc. .

And again, concrete chopping isn't even that difficult, it is laughable to complain about it on a survival/emergency class knife when high end put cutting bowies do it without a second thought. Nice toughness benchmark you are setting there. My survival knife isn't as tough as a purely cutting optomized bowie. You might want to reconsider that promotional tagline.

The really ironic thing about the above complaint is that the knife got damaged much more extensively splitting the wood than it did hitting the concrete. Think about that for a second.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff, you said you were sending the Extreme Judgement back. Do you mean to Fehrman's, or did you get it from someone else? Also, do you expect a refund when you return it? Just curious.

 

[Ebbtide]

And again, concrete chopping isn't even that difficult, it is laughable to complain about it on a survival/emergency class knife when high end put cutting bowies do it without a second thought. Nice toughness benchmark you are setting there. My survival knife isn't as tough as a purely cutting optomized bowie. You might want to reconsider that promotional tagline.

The really ironic thing about the above complaint is that the knife got damaged much more extensively splitting the wood than it did hitting the concrete. Think about that for a second.

OK, I'm thinking about it.


And if it (concrete block chopping) isn't that big a deal...why do it?
If you are worried about hitting a rock or inclusion or the ground, hit rocks inclusions, and the ground.
Sigh.

Also, what do you mean by a "put cutting bowie"?
I realize it is a typo, and I can usually figure them out, but this one has got me stumped.
"Push"?
A 'push' cutting bowie?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... hit rocks inclusions, and the ground.

Concrete simulates them in a more consistent manner which allows more meaningful comparisons, like chopping 2x4 with test knives instead of a random piece of wood with each knife. The others are of course also done with extended use of the knife.

"Push"?

Yes, just highly optomized for cutting vs durability.

The EJ is going back to Ferhman. I asked for a refund due to the steel chipping, if he wants to provide a replacement then I'll just sell it. No big deal.

-Cliff

 

[komondor]

Feh.

What good is a Busse knife? Knives are made for.....cutting. Busse knives don't cut anything particularly well. Maybe about as good as an ax. But at least you can chop things properly with an ax.

Here's a joke for ya: "I cut myself the other day on my Busse knife. No, it wasn't the edge, it was the poorly fitted scales."

 

[Steelhed]

komondor - Are you out of our mind? Have you ever used a Busse? Some of them are optimized for chopping and general heavy use, but some are ground fairly thin and cut just fine. In fact I have both and an older Badger Attack and a newer Leaner Meaner that will outcut just about anything I own. And I own and use Fehrmans, Doziers, Bark Rivers, Marbles, Blackjacks, etc., and several customs. My sharpest knife is a Dozier, but I have two Busses that come dang close. In fact I use a Busse NO-E ZT in the kitchen and it slices and dices just fine. No, not as good as a kitchen knife designed for that chore, but as good as any other general purpose knife I own - well, the Pasayten is a really good kitchen type knife. The Fehrmans, BTW, work very well in the kitchen, especially the Shadow Scout.

If you were trolling with that Busse comment, shame on you.

 

[komondor]

Are you out of our mind?

Perhaps somewhere in the multiverse I am asking you the same question, except you is a combination of you and Harvey Fierstein, and this knife forum is instead a forum named Cross-Dressing & Civil War Era Artillery Cannons.

Have you ever used a Busse?

Yes, I owned a Steel Heart II. I was unaware of the edge thickness until I removed it from the box. I was disappointed.

Some of them are optimized for chopping and general heavy use,

No. The only thing optimized for chopping is an ax or a hatchet, or perhaps an HI khurkuri. Knives cannot be optimized for chopping.

Now general heavy use? That is another matter, but the terminology is vague. Any heavy duty combat, survival or field knife can be described as suitable for "general heavy use."

In fact I have both and an older Badger Attack......

Unless that blade was reprofiled, or you ordered the edge custom, then it can't be much of a cutter. I can't believe it. And if it does have the standard edge geometry found on all of Busse's larger knife line, then why or how would this particular Badger Attack be a better cutter than any SH or BM, which are "optimized for chopping?"

......and a newer Leaner Meaner that will outcut just about anything I own.

Now that I can believe. But those arn't necessarily the knives that the company boasts about, is it? Smaller edge geometry equals better cutting ability. But if someone touts a large "combat" knife as the end all be all because of its toughness, then it better be able to cut well. I am aware that Busse makes those "other" knives, but I'm talking about the knives that everyone else talks about: their large combat knives.

If you were trolling with that Busse comment, shame on you.

Oh great, Mike "frowned" me. Come on Mike, it's me, komondor.

 

[Eric Isaacson]

Feh.

What good is a Busse knife? Knives are made for.....cutting. Busse knives don't cut anything particularly well. Maybe about as good as an ax. But at least you can chop things properly with an ax.

Here's a joke for ya: "I cut myself the other day on my Busse knife. No, it wasn't the edge, it was the poorly fitted scales."

Nope, they don't cut anything well, not even those 2770 pieces of 1" hemp http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ry Busse rope cutting Blade Show&pagenumber=1

And check out post #9 in this thread. Someone that knows a few things about hunting and working in the scrub calls one of those knives that "don't cut anything" a "true all around bush blade"
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319773

I'm glad that you told me how poor they are, I sure wouldn't have known by reading any of the threads of people who really use them

If you don't like Busses don't buy them, but to speak about them with such little evidence to support your claims is just plain poor. You've owned 1 knife of the thousands Busse has sold, your post is pretty bold with such a small sampling.

 

[knifetester]

For reference David Boye made over 3000 cuts with a kitchen knife:

Boye Knife ref.

What would be revealing is not so much how many cuts were made, but how much pressure would be needed for each cut, and how did this vary as the test went along.

Also, how well does rope cutting simulate the actual use of the knife. For a big chopping blade, wear resistance, which is what rope cutting like this measures, may not be the best test. When chopping, most dulling comes from either edge deformation (edge rolling) or micro-chipping.

I have no opinion on the performance of any of these knives, my interest lies in developing tests that best simulate how a knife will perform in extended use. The problems in developing such tests are many,much of which depends on the individual knife user. What the knife will be used for, how consistent is the testing medium, how accurate are the measurements, etc. The biggest variable however remains the skill and strength level of the user. For example, Svend Karlsen, Magnus Samuelsson or Hugo Girard may be strong enough to push a piece of flat unsharpened bar stock through the rope a million times, and such an instrument would never effectively dull, it would be as sharp, or dull, at the begining of the test as at the end.

That is why I believe CATRA testing using specific card stock, such as that done by Spyderco and Buck are the most accurate measures. However, such testing is beyond the reach of consumers for cost reasons.

It would be nice if makers could send their knives in to be tested, and be given a specific rating. However, given the testing methodology (mules or special blanks are used for many tests, not actual knives), the question of applying these ratings to specific knife may become troublesome to some.

As for the issue of sample size, as Cliff Stamp has pointed out many times, this is not really a valid concern. Sample size is only a big factor where the is a significant varience among the samples. Any quality knife maker will have good quality control, which means by definition if you picked any knife off the rack it should fare the same as any other knife the maker produces.

However, I do applaud any maker that will test their knives and share
the results with consumers, even more so makers who conduct the tests in public.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What would be revealing is not so much how many cuts were made, but how much pressure would be needed for each cut, and how did this vary as the test went along.

Yes, without this you could just increase the force and cut forever. Busse periodically does sharpness tests, shaving, paper slicing, etc. to show that the sharpness is high and that he isn't just powering a blunt knife through.

Also, how well does rope cutting simulate the actual use of the knife. For a big chopping blade, wear resistance, which is what rope cutting like this measures, may not be the best test. When chopping, most dulling comes from either edge deformation (edge rolling) or micro-chipping.

Yes, however note Busse uses INFI on other knives, some of them are biased towards pure cutting ability. Plus they do other tests which are more critical for large knives such as 2x4 cuts, concrete block impacts, flex tests, anvil slaps, etc. .

What impressed me wasn't the individual performance but the combination. It is easy to make a knife cut rope well, not easy to make it do that well and then not get functionally damaged when you whack it into something hard.

Plus in any case, he is out there in public actually showing what his knives can do, regardless of the performance that alone gathers a lot of respect.


-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

It is easy to make a knife cut rope well, not easy to make it do that well and then not get functionally damaged when you whack it into something hard.

Yes, functionality across a diverse range of functions is hard to maintain in producing a knife. Usually the reduction of cross section that will bring greater cutting performance will result in a dramatic decrease in durability. That is the dilema, and the answer probably lies in a combination of steel, heat treat and geometery.


So making a knife that will cut well, yet still be durable is sort of the holy grail of knifemaking. In firearm circles, it is the mythical gun that weighs but a feather, holds 100 rounds, has the power of a .44 magnum and no recoil.