Filipino vs Apache?

A

apache_tom

Joined
Mar 16, 2007
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I am not a knife fighter and Im looking to go to a seminar on edged weapons very soon. There are alot of classes around where i live but theya re all atleast 2 hours away.

I have read about the Apache Knife Fighting school in arkansas and Im planing on going.

What are the differences between the 2 and Is the Apache style just as good as the Filipino?
 
Filipinos may have come by steel edged weapons a few hundred years ahead of the apaches, but other than that, i could only guess.

Just this, the apache method might include a lot of throwing techniques.
 
Apaches would have come into contact with Europeans towards the end of the 16th century, and while it's possible that 19th and 20th century Apache methods of fighting with a knife were influenced by Spanish 17th and 18th century styles of fencing and knife fighting, it's hard to say since this isn't a particularly well-known tradition. It's probably a fundamental, well-grounded system, judging by the Mr. Redfeather's website. You'll just have to go and find out for yourself.

Filipino metal-bladed knife culture is at least a thousand years older (at least in coastal areas affected by sea trading) and is influenced by Chinese, Malay, Arab, European, and local tradtions. Many of the wide variety of styles and systems remained hidden from view by tribes, villages, clans, and families and were not shown or taught to outsiders until very recently.

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
Sorry but the whole apache thing is made up. It isnt real. Go with philipino for sure.
 
Well...it depends why you're into it. If you are lookig for some sort of "combat tradition/heritage" stuff, you might be loosing your time with the apache thing, but don't take my word for it. However, I'd say that Mr. Redfeather's knife fighting method is very good and sound in application, regardless of whether it is passed down onto hium, or entirely his own invention.

Just my $.02
 
Nothing wrong with something being made up, but people should be upfront about it. Something bothers me about training with someone who is looking at you as a sucker right from the start.
 
Check this thread by Blaise Loong. He describes his experience in regards to "Apache Knife Fighting". I trained under him for nearly 15 years but focused on Eskrima/Silat/Boxing so I can't really give insight to Apache anything. What I do agree with, as a possible explanation, is how he describes the Apache knife fighting as "moves" he learned from his elders as opposed to a "system". Seems logical. But you decide for yourselves. Not my area. ;)

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/celticsword/vpost?id=389502&highlight=apache+knife

FMA I know. Very well. IMHO it's an excellent all around system. But that's me. :)
 
Tyrkon Lawson said:
Check this thread by Blaise Loong. He describes his experience in regards to "Apache Knife Fighting". I trained under him for nearly 15 years but focused on Eskrima/Silat/Boxing so I can't really give insight to Apache anything. What I do agree with, as a possible explanation, is how he describes the Apache knife fighting as "moves" he learned from his elders as opposed to a "system". Seems logical. But you decide for yourselves. Not my area. ;)

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/celticsword/vpost?id=389502&highlight=apache+knife

FMA I know. Very well. IMHO it's an excellent all around system. But that's me. :)
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable. Mr. Redfeather states on his website that he has also trained in the martial arts for the past 43 years so what he may bring to the table is a level of experience plus a certain attitude towards fighting that may have been informed by his elders. As stated above, the only way to find out is to go to the class.

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
AF1 said:
Nothing wrong with something being made up, but people should be upfront about it. Something bothers me about training with someone who is looking at you as a sucker right from the start.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY. But hey, if it makes someone happy and they have money to spend..
 
AF1 said:
Nothing wrong with something being made up, but people should be upfront about it. Something bothers me about training with someone who is looking at you as a sucker right from the start.
Click to expand...

+1 at least. I agree. If you make something up be up front with it, even if it works.
 
This topic is interesting to me, on several levels.

The people of the Philippines have used numerous languages, as have the people of the Native America's. Prior to invasion by foreign forces, these languages remained intact in both cultures. After assimilation of European culture and languages both the Filipinos and Native Americans diversity of languages diminished.

The Filipino method of fighting is rather well documented and has been meticulously passed down over the years. We still don't really know how King Lapu-Lapu fought, so some might argue we don't know the original Filipino way. If a systemized (and original) way of training in the Apache methods of fighting exists, it is not well known.

It is well known the Native Americans used knives. Many Europeans observed this and it was documented. This might be part of the problem however, many (most?) Native American languages did not have a form of writing. This requires any system passed down from one person to the next to be done orally. This is similar to the Filipino MA, which were often passed down orally.

I don't know if it's a question of "Apache v. Filipino". I think the FMA uses the knife in a formidable way. If the "Apache" knife methods were really discovered, they would undoubtedly have something to offer. The value of any method is based upon the person, their application and interpretation.
 
there's this thing called rejuvenation. you can ressurect a dead language, the way the israelites did with hebrew. the craft of making the osage orange indian bow was rejuvenated less than 30 years ago, after the native americans dropped it in favore of the fiirearm some 200 years ago.

fighting with knives? i have a question: where did the brothers jim and rezin get their skills? did they just refine european blade fighting? i think any culture that uses knives often would develop a culture of fighting with it (i'm avoiding the term "fighting system").
 
hank_rearden said:
there's this thing called rejuvenation. you can ressurect a dead language, the way the israelites did with hebrew. the craft of making the osage orange indian bow was rejuvenated less than 30 years ago, after the native americans dropped it in favore of the fiirearm some 200 years ago.

fighting with knives? i have a question: where did the brothers jim and rezin get their skills? did they just refine european blade fighting? i think any culture that uses knives often would develop a culture of fighting with it (i'm avoiding the term "fighting system").
Click to expand...
Hebrew had a substantial written record. Not being a linguist, I can only guess this makes resurrecting a language easier. Even modern Hebrew borrowed from other languages to fill in deficiencies.

Is the "Apache Knife" training system based upon the original methods? Having never trained in it, I can't vouch for the validity of the system.

James and Rezin bowies knife skills? Wow, that's a whole other can of worms. I agree, there are different kinds of knife cultures, no doubt.

I think there are some interesting historical similarities between the Apache and Filipino people. I would logically guess there would be other similarities. My point was this: Learn what you think is useful to you and discard the rest.
 
Most of what the Filipinos know originally about the knife or blades all comes from Spain. They did'nt invent knife work. The Native americans had their problems with foreign invaders as well, mainly from Spain. So they do have similar influences. I'm sure alot of what the apaches leanred also comes from south america. South america has alot of damn good knifers down there. Some of the best knifers in the world come from sotuh america.
 
Armbreaker, Please do your research the next time you throw out erroneous information.There are some spanish influence in some FMA systems.But, a lot of their techniques are all 100 percent Filipino.All original.The Philippines is still very much a knife culture.Always has been.Even way before the time of the Spanish.
 
wrong filam, and I'm not stating an opinion its a fact, almost all the blade influences all originated from the spanish. Not my opinion, fact.
 
Hey 69,
You said All Filipino knife systems came from the Europeans/Spaniards.

Did someone tell you? Or was it a particular article or book that states this as a fact?:confused:

It is a fact that many escrima and arnis practitioners had training from Spanish fighting schools. In fact I can still recall Guro Inosanto telling me with some pride that General Antonio Luna, the Filipino revolutionary, was trained in Spain to fence. But no where have I read or heard that all the FMA knife systems evolved from Spain.
 
i agree with edge fighter...most of central and northern part (Luzon) were occupied by the Spaniards and yes their way of fighting was influenced by the Spanish...but the South (Mindanao) and far north of Luzon-the Igorot indians: Kalinga, Bontoc, Ifugaos, etc... were not conquered and they were the very infamous head-hunting tribes. the Spanish tried to but was unsuccessful. thanks to the mountain regions of Cordelera. their bladeware stays the same and their grappling arts stays the same. sad to say but they are now a dying tribe since everyone is moving down to the city and leaving their old way of life.
 
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