"Friction Forged" blades--anybody tested one?

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Jan 21, 2000
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Here's a press release from Outdooor News Service my brother emailed to me yesterday. Sounds like typical hype aimed at a relatively non-discriminating public, but I'd like to know more about it, and there's nothing on the "Knives of Alaska" website yet. Has anybody tried this stuff?:

By JIM MATTHEWS

"FRAZIER PARK - More and more new technology is incorporated into
outdoor gear every year. It wasn't long ago that no one had heard of
GPS (Global Positioning System) units, now it's a rare hunter or fisherman
who doesn't understand GPS and many own them. I'm almost ashamed to
admit that I remember the first graphite fishing rod.
(For you kids, a brief history lesson: Fishing rods were made with
fiberglass for years before graphite came on the scene, thanks to the
aerospace industry.)
Some of the new technology just makes little improvements in
performance or the ease with which we can do things in the field. Other
things have very significant impacts in improving products.
This week I have been using a new knife with a blade that is made
with a new process called "friction forging." Remember that process.
Using heat caused by pressure and rotation, the process reduces the
grain structure of steel while making it harder at the same time. It
doesn't melt the steel, it becomes plasticized and its properties
change. The technical specifications of how this happens are
fascinating and took a panel of five metallurgical experts about two hours to explain.
The process is less important than what it does to knife blade
steel. In a nutshell, this new super knife blade can be made extremely
sharp, but more importantly, it holds that edge for magnitudes longer
than any other steel used to make knife blades. It is also more
durable. Hunters know that most steel knives dull after the dressing and
skinning process of a single deer. The new friction-forged blade may never need sharpening by the average deer hunter who shoot a deer or two a year.
As a bonus, the edge of the blade is corrosion-proof because of
the high chromium content, but it is not made from stainless steel. This
means that rust won't dull the blade either.
The new knives will be marketed under the name of Diamond Blade.
Charles E. Allen, the president and founder of Knives of Alaska, a
12-year-old Texas company that supplies over 100,000 high-quality
hunting knives a year to the hunting marketplace, is the principal
who's pulled together the team for this new undertaking.
Utilizing the research efforts over the past decade by Brigham
Young University metallurgists Dr. Tracy Nelson and Dr. Carl Sorensen,
the technology was adapted to knife blades to create what Nelson calls
"the biggest legitimate improvement in the knife industry in over 40
years."
How much better is it? Using the "shave test" criteria, the new
Diamond Blade knife was tested against virtually all of the other
steels used in knifes. They were all mechanically sharpened the same way, and a task was performed repeatedly (rope was cut) until the knife couldn't shave hair from skin. Most knives lost that ability with as few as 15 cuttings, and even the best steel lost it's edge after about 150 pieces
of rope were cut. The new steel blade continued to hold its edge even
after 250 pieces of rope had been cut and time curtailed more testing.
In a less formal test, Charles Allen tells how he and his staff
kept performing cutting tasks with the new knife and then shaving hair
off their skin. "I can tell you than none of us had any hair left on
our bodies after about a week, and the knife was still sharp enough to
shave hair."
That may be too much information.
No, the knife isn't cheap. It will be in the $330 to $400 range,
depending on the model, and all are presentation quality knives with
exotic handles. But that is on par with or priced below most of the
quality, custom knives on the market.
"We're not saying the edge is indestructible or that it never has
to be sharpened. It's not going to have to be sharpened as often and
it's more durable," said Allen.
Sorenson says the friction forging makes the steel able to start
out at least 50 percent sharper at the beginning, and it can hold that
sharpness several magnitudes greater than other steel.
It won't take 40 years for all other knife steel to become
obsolete."
 
Will,

I just returned home from the official “Friction Forged” blade kick-off meeting at the Tejon Ranch in California. This was a three day wild boar hunt where the writers were given the Friction Forged knives and asked to use and assess them. This is about all I should say as I do not want to be pre-emptive to many of the writers that were in attendance.

I can tell you that the FF knives will be marketed under DiamondBlade Inc. The DiamondBlades website will not be active for two more weeks. All newspaper and internet writers were asked to hold off on any release for two more weeks for that very reason. However, given the level of performance by these knives, and the excitement by all the writers in attendance, I would not be surprised if more were to released prematurely.

I can tell you that many well known and respected individuals were in attendance. Wayne Goddard, Chuck Karwan and Durwood Hollis were a few of the 14 writers in attendance. Their assessment of the FF knives will be in numerous magazines and websites over the next few months.

TN
 
I know that Wayne Goddard has personally tested it. The whole process is patented and everything though, so if you don't like the knives that they come out with, then you won't be trying the steel.
 
Using heat caused by pressure and rotation...

Isn't that just a description of normal rolling. Much of the above is fluff like "corrosion proof" and when part of it is hype pretty much all of it is hype. I would be interested to see actual materials data from the team of engineers who explained it. Would be the first thing I would have done to quantify the properties of the material.

-Cliff
 
The science is real, because these two Mech Engineering professors have published a number of papers and have at least one patent for a new method for Friction Stir Welding (FSW), a relatively new welding technique that uses a spinning tool to create a weld with superior properties (compared to fusion welding). It is a solid state process (it plasticizes and joins the material being welded without melting it) that in the past was only used for low temp metals (like Al), and these guys are at the forefront of FSW with high temp metals (steel).

That said, I'm still wondering specifically how it would make a superior knife. The advantage to FSW is that it doesn't create a weak area at the weld with cast or embrittled material like fusion welding does. While I don't understand the advantages as far as making a knife, I suspect they are making a knife with an edge that has been through this process (just speculation).

I'll be looking forward to finding out more.
 
http://web.umr.edu/~fspiucrc/index.htm
http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/fsw/index.html (a lot of the links are dead, but here's some papers http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/fsw/pastpresentations_complete.html)

here's a couple papers about 3D modeling of the process
http://www-cemef.cma.fr/fr/presentation/pagesperso/lf/5IFSW_Guerdoux.pdf
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/ETD/image/etd417.pdf

I wonder what the steel is in these knives, high chrome but not stainless sounds like D2, which KoA uses. The process sounds like maybe a quicker or cheaper way to differentially harden. I'm not sure why you would want to do that on hunting knives, though I don't much care for it on any knife unless it's for the aesthetics of a nice hamon.
 
I see no advantage to this system in a homogenous steel.

If they are trying to create a stronger laminate, that may hold more water by separately HT'ing each metal and then forge welding them together, but I don't know that that is what is happening here.

250 pieces of rope cut? So what? Many knives have cut way way more than that.
 
It's not a laminating process. One of the people who tested it was Wayne Goddard, his rope cutting tests yield 45 cuts with a typical steel. He's not one of those "My knife made 2000 cuts and would still shave hair!" people. Still the process will only be used for Knives of Alaska, so whether it works or not doesn't matter to me.
 
It's not a laminating process. One of the people who tested it was Wayne Goddard, his rope cutting tests yield 45 cuts with a typical steel. He's not one of those "My knife made 2000 cuts and would still shave hair!" people. Still the process will only be used for Knives of Alaska, so whether it works or not doesn't matter to me.


true, anyone can claim anything, but when it is done in front of a collection of knifemakers at a knifeshow and the cuts approach 2000 on the same small section of blade, it's hard to argue isn't it? :D

Did you see the Zubeng knife that chopped 13000 pieces of rope. I will admit, that chopping uses much more force but I am sure I could get my old Spyderco Military in 440V to cut a few hundred pieces of rope with little to no loss of edge. I have used it extensively and have not needed to sharpen it often, which is good considering tha it is a pain in the arse to sharpen.

All I am saying is that until there is more info, there is nothing impressive to those who know knives, but I guess it is to the non knife expert public.
 
He's not one of those "My knife made 2000 cuts and would still shave hair!" people.

Busse has done this live in front of witnesses so it isn't like this is hype Larrin. Of course how many cuts you get depends on the type of rope, how you cut it, the edge geometry and finish.

-Cliff
 
I was just putting the 250 cuts into perspective. Wayne Goddard's method for testing for slicing edge retention does not usually come anywhere close to 250 cuts. I definitely don't think that a Busse knife will hold it's edge 10 times longer than one of Wayne Goddard's, and that's not saying anything against Busse knives.
 
Busse has done this live in front of witnesses so it isn't like this is hype Larrin. Of course how many cuts you get depends on the type of rope, how you cut it, the edge geometry and finish.

-Cliff

There is definite hype and there is nothing wrong with hype as long as there is performance to back it up.



I was just putting the 250 cuts into perspective. Wayne Goddard's method for testing for slicing edge retention does not usually come anywhere close to 250 cuts. I definitely don't think that a Busse knife will hold it's edge 10 times longer than one of Wayne Goddard's, and that's not saying anything against Busse knives.


very true and therein lies the problem. Depending on the test media edge geometry, force used etc, tests results can change.
 
It is interesting how people immediately start poking holes in things before the real technical stuff is released. I know there have been a lot of mishaps in the past where improved performance has been claimed but little delivered. Some of these previous mishaps were published/released prematurely, e.g. without careful testing and analysis. However, it appears that the FF technology has much more peer review from the science community (thanks Broos and HardHeart for finding, and sending, the information along).

The article on Turner is a very quick summary of the new technology, no data involved. I hope we see more technical information/data from some of the other writers.

TN
 
Wayne Goddard's method for testing for slicing edge retention does not usually come anywhere close to 250 cuts. I definitely don't think that a Busse knife will hold it's edge 10 times longer than one of Wayne Goddard's, and that's not saying anything against Busse knives.

Blunting is nonlinear, Goddard also does not have a precisely measured stopping point so yes, you can easily have ten times as many cuts in such a test. I have showed explicit graphs in the past of problems with such testing and the variances that you can see and the general trends. You can cut ten times as much rope and see 10% further degredation or less. That should put some of the huge numbers in perspective.

-Cliff
 
Goddard uses a scale and a pre-determined number of pounds of pressure for when he stops, how precise a stopping point do you want?
 
What's his stopping pressure (or is it force?) Phil Wilson stops at 20 lbs, IIRC. Maybe we can see something comparable. It would be nice if they used something other than hair shaving for the Diamond Blade brand; we've pretty much established that human hair varies too much from person to person, as does perception of the ease of shaving.

Maybe they're using a bigger disc or getting small blades full hard, probably a little premature for me to assume that they were only hardening a portion of the knives. The illustrations show that the weld seam was the only area undergoing transformation, but who knows exactly how they've adapted it. Guess we'll get the details in a couple weeks.

The ad copy is a bit much, what with the orders of magnitude edge holding and 50% sharper business. Knuts know a bit better than to accept blanket statements of across the board superiority like that. A little communication will clear it up eventually.
 
It will be interesting to see how the knives turnout under market usage.

Public tests are good, but they tend to be thought out prior to performing them to ensure the knife will look good during the performance. Even if the knife yields impressive results in such tests against other knives it has to be kept in mind that the public performance aspect of the show is intended to show the best qualities of the knife not its limitations. Personally I am more swayed by the testimonies of the many busse fans as evidence of performance than the public demonstrations (even if the latter are interesting).

Certainly these lines of the original article caught my eye as hype:

"Hunters know that most steel knives dull after the dressing and
skinning process of a single deer. The new friction-forged blade may never need sharpening by the average deer hunter who shoot a deer or two a year."

This is extrapolation and pure hype. Maybe the knife will never dull, maybe it will break in two pieces like a ceramic? Only time will tell how well the process actually performs. Given the process is entirely proprietary than only real-world performance will legitimize any of the above claims.
 
"Hunters know that most steel knives dull after the dressing and
skinning process of a single deer. The new friction-forged blade may never need sharpening by the average deer hunter who shoot a deer or two a year."



I'll reserve judgement till someone here gets one. But the guys I used to hunt with wouldn't know a sharp knife even if they fell on it. I sharpened some knives for the guys year before last and these knives were never sharpened. Asked one guy how he could use a knife with no edge whatsoever and he said "It ain't that bad, it's sharp enough for what I need". He didn't get a deer but lent it to one of his buddies who did and guess who was asked to sharpen his camp's knives this year. Boy were these knives beat. Dirty, dinged and downright dull. Like I said, I'll wait till I read something on these boards till I form my half-assed opinion.
 
If the steel and the process is patented, then all of the details must be made public on the patent application. A search of the USPTO website should be able to locate it and it should describe exactly what they are doing.
 
TN-

Thank you for your posts and welcome to the forums.

Thanks also to everyone who has posted. Looks like some of the best-informed blade minds extant are in the dark as to the process and what it portends. It will be interesting to see if the process can come anywhere close to the promises made in the puffing we've seen so far, especially if these breakthrough improvements can be reached without unmentioned downsides as we've seen with so many such promotions in the past.

Best to all,
Will
 
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