Full Story on the catastrophic failure of Marbles 7"Trailmaker.

Joined
Jun 7, 2000
Messages
56
Here are the pics...
badbl1.JPG



badbl2.JPG

Now here is the story. After about 10 chops on a very dry 2X4, the edge folded and then chipped in a way similar to ceramic and the aluminum butt loosened up to the point where it fell off the knife later that day with the brass nut that holds it. It was a new board but I was checking it for nails, I just couldn't believe it.


I tried running a file over the undamaged tip area of the blade, lightly as if to sharpen it and little tiny chips were formed as I did it. It was like sharpening a teacup.

So I don't know what happened, it was as if the temper on this knife was bad. I don't know much about the knife making process in particular, but this knife reminded me of a bowie knife I bought years ago that was made in Pakistan and was un-tempered. Also the blade grind seemed particularly unsuited to chopping, though in the ad for the knife says "Both knives will effortlessly sever a two-inch manila rope, clear a trail and cut firewood." Also these knives are famous the world over for thier outdoor stamina so I now believe I just got that one in a million knife that got messed up. It was sent back to the factory and I am awaiting word, though I know they must be very busy with all the holiday orders.

I am a loyal Marble's user, as is my family, and we have owned several of their fine knives over three generations. I did post the pics of the blade to open up the discussion on how this may have happened, please do not view this as an attack on Marbles in any way as some have suggested. This happens in production made knives, it
happens to custom made knives. It happens...Murphy's Law. I have absolutely no bias against any company. I do not make knives or work in the knife industry. I am a backpacker. I am not a knife professional, simply a user.

I'm still working on a full review of production-made backpacking/camp knives comparing the CS Recon Tanto, BK&T Magnum Camp Knife, Randall #14, HI 15" Sirupati, the A.G. Russell 1969 Camp Knife and when and if I get it back, the 7" Trailmaster. The weight limit is one pound and it will be asked to chop through a 2X4, slice a tomato, cut nylon rope in one slash motion, and open a can of baked beans. Finally it will be evaluated on looks...is it pretty or not? The way you would look at a fly rod or a double gun. As you can see this is all very personal criteria and it probably will only be useful to other people that use knives for exactly the same thing and have similar tastes.

There is no real way for a knife to" fail." since it may not be designed to do what I am using it for. I am not a knife expert, I'm just a guy stumbling through trying to find the right knife for the best job the only way I can figure how...trying them out.

Will keep you updated here with what happens with the knife and any further testing.
-Sporty


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The pen is mightier than the sword...but not as much fun!

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-22-2000).]
 
Sporty, have you contacted Marbles yet on this?

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
So what's the problem? It looks like you have a knife with a bad job of applying serrations.
biggrin.gif
.

Have you sent a copy of your photos to Marbles? I KNOW they will "make it right" for you, but it DOES look like a VERY bad job of tempering the steel. (Or maybe NOT tempering the steel.).

Anyway, it would be interesting to find out the "hardness" of that blade...

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Dann Fassnacht
Aberdeen, WA
glockman99@hotmail.com
ICQ# 53675663
 
Yes Knife went back to Marble's and they will get back to me after the holidays. Will leave word here how it goes.

-Sporty
 
Sporty,
Thanks for the post. I will look forward to the results of the evaluation being performed at Marbles.

I don't know if this will help you now since you are already in contact with them, but if you desire, you can post this over at www.knifeforums.com in "The Marble Arms" forum.
Maybe someone there can provide further insight.

Good luck.

--The Raptor--
 
Good pictures and description of what produced the damage. You are being very generous to Marbles. Of course things can and do happen, but what makes this scary is that most people will take a new knife into the woods on a maiden voyage without giving it some sort of heavy but reasonable test like the one you performed. Worse still might be people who don't ever intend to put a scratch in the blade, but to preserve it as a collection piece. Presumably, its value would be considerably lowered if it turned out the blade had been improperly tempered!

Then there's the apocalyptic scenario. I can see it all now... A Marbles knife is handed down unused from father to son for generations when the last son, one of the last free men on Earth, living in a distant post-apocalyptic new ice age must use the knife to survive his escape from the minions of darkess that then persue him! The knife FAILS, dooming him, and insuring the triumph of evil over the planet! Geeze! Its too scary to contemplate!
 
Thanks you guys for all your support and insight. I am absolutely sure that Marbles will rectify the situation, but I am gonna wait until after the 1st before I bother them again. Matthew, I really don't think this is a life threatening situation. It is better for a knife to fail this way than for your confidence in it to grow over teh years and have it fail when you really trust it. I think it's always a good idea to do a little mild testing before heading out to the woods. The guys over on the marbles thread at knifeforums haven't read this link yet, just the old one where it was brought up in conversation. So they think I over tested it. As I said it was ten chops on a 2X4, hardly a brutal attack.
 
Matthew:

You probably won't have the same reactions after you stop using the "MAD-DOG 20/20"

rolleyes.gif
, and
eek.gif


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Ron,
Bremerton, Washington
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[This message has been edited by muzzleup (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
Man, what a mess. I'd be interested in hearing whether the results could be duplicated on other Marble's knives. I own a Marble's Expert made from leftover parts, including the blade with the old stamp. Particularly interesting would be comparative tests with Marble's made with the old blades, but you won't be trying it with MY knife!

Hope you have better luck!
-Bob W
 
Interesting damage, I wondered about the durability of the edges on the larger Marbles blades due to the full grinds, but have never seen failure like the above. What is interesting is that there are dents near the tip but fractures elsewere. I will be interested to hear how this is responded to by Marbles.

-Cliff
 
The grind has nothing to do with it. The toughest knives ive ever seen used hard were full flat grinds, thin edges, much distil taper.

Bad heat treat is the culprit hear. Even simple minded country boy like me can see that.
biggrin.gif


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"Never hit a man unless you must, but if you must, knock him down" Teddy Roosevelt.

www.lameyknives.com
 
Got to agree with you, Matt. I do not see how blade grind has anything to do with this.
 
I don't think it is the blade grind just because these knives have been in heavy use for a long time and people still swear by them.


When this failure first happened I thought it was a fake, but that is preposterous, if I was gonna make counterfeits I would make counterfeits of ones from 1918. Don't ye go getttin any blasted ideas!
smile.gif




I think it is the temper. Before sending it off to Marble's I ran a new file lightly crossways (the bad way) across the blade and it grabbed and popped a chip out the size of which would have taken me several strokes with full pressure and a vise to create on another carbon blade. But the key is that it chipped, it didn't file. It was brittle.

Has anyone had this experience with a knife before? Anyone know of anything in archives that is similar?

BTW, still no word from Marble's.




[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 01-04-2001).]
 
Matt :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The grind has nothing to do with it.</font>

Any blade will eventually fail if you thin the edge out too much. A full flat grind on a 2" wide blade for example leaves an edge with an angle of about 4 degrees. I can't see any blade such ground, regardless of who made it out of what material, that could stand up to serious use.

A full convex grind, with a large radius of curvature would come very close to this profile (a flat grind is just a convex one with an infinite radius of curvature). It would just depend on if there is a secondary edge bevel and if so how much curvature it had.

To get more specific, I have yet to find a blade that can go under about 10 degrees and take any hard work without taking visible damage. You can do limited chopping, large clear wood for example, but knots, limbing, etc., will all readily do the edge in.

Harder work like chopping up seasoned bone usually requires significantly more beef, about the best I have seen on this around 15 degrees. Depends of course greatly on the speed and power of the swing and the control of the user. Even harder impacts like cuttings hard steel (nails and such) requires an even thicker edge, say 20+ degrees.

If there is anyone making a large (10"+) blade with an edge profile that can do what I described with significantly lower edge angles please drop me an email as I would greatly be interested in a blade as the performance increase over what I am currently using would be significant.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 01-04-2001).]
 
Perplexing and distressing.

As Cliff notes, dents (deformations) near the tip, and fractures more proximally. What makes this even stranger is that you said you applied a file to the tip area, and the edge fractured. This contraindicates the previous data which suggested the blade is over hard proximally and soft distally.

Further, what caused the multiple longitudinal scratches on the blade?

Certainly this sort of damage should have not occured given the circumstances you describe. I am most interested in Marble's reply. Walt
 


"Further, what caused the multiple longitudinal scratches on the blade?"

They are from cleaning up the blade with the plastic scrub side of a sponge. I think where it chipped heavilly is the sweet spot of the blade and therefore took the most abuse. I can't remember now, but I THINK the blade hade the chipped ceramic feeling throughout. -Sporty

 
Looks like the computer-controlled cryo-quench went awry....

Or maybe those are leftover Warner-Moran blades (just kidding...)

Or maybe Mike's easy-bake oven needs a new thermostat?
 
Cliff-You mention these types of blades not being able to hold up under chopping knots…I was definitely chopping knotty 2X4's. Also, what about the blade on the BK&T Magnum Camp, I know it's not the same type of grind but it is still a very thin blade and it chops like the dickens.

Anthony-In the original thread on this topic you called what happened with this knife before I said a word which implies you might have had some similar experience. Yea? Nay? Or do you have special powers I should be aware of?
smile.gif


Also, what about the butt cap coming off? Is there any way that that could be caused by a heat treat problem in the tang.

Have posted on the Marble Arms area of Knifeforums here…

http://www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000197.html

…and there have been some testimonies from fans that say this is a freak occurrence.

Still no response from Marble's to speak of though I have e-mailed twice this week.


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The pen is mightier than the sword...but not as much fun!

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 01-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 01-05-2001).]
 
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