Grinding jigs and other technology, is it cheating?

Knifemakers who use grinding jigs and is it cheating?

I have worked the past 3 years as a machinist doing CNC work and for a rescue equipment manufacturer. You look thru all of the shops and you will see drilling indexes, grinding jigs, and special tooling designed for efficient production. It is the industry standard to use the latest technology. In today's techno-society with mini cnc mills and plasma cutters (I use both) who's to say what is cheating? What about the band saw vs the hand hacksaw? Or the light bulb vs a kerosene lamp? How far are we going to carry this? I saw in my early learning years a knife maker who had 4 drill presses for each step of manufacture with hole indexing pins. He also used a indexing rig on his mill to cut guards. That knifemaker was Bob Loveless's shop (he wasn't at the time even grinding his own blades), is he cheating?

So if I am using a grinding jig (I still hand grind my double edged fighting knives) or a mill or a hand crank drill... let the customer decide.

I try and deliver a quality product, timely and at a reasonable price.
 
J

Jonesy

Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Messages
158
I don't use a jig to grind. I am always open to constructive criticism but I really don't care what anyone thinks of how I get to the end product. There is no one way to do it.

Jonesy
 
imo, cnc and jigs that remove the hand held blade grinding are not handmade knives. and i dont buy mr. chris reeves statement that cnc knives are handmade because someone has to program the computer.as far as power go's i am still using my hand's on the grinding surface.

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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
There's nothing at all wrong with using automation at any level to make knives. Hundreds of thousands of them are made in Korea that way each year. Buck does it that way. Gerber does it that way. If that is your forté, that is probably the market you should be competing in. As with Buck, if it is made to customer specs you could call it custom - but don't call it handcrafted.

Rob!

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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
I have a friend who lives in the Idaho Mountains and hand cranks his forge with farriers coal, he has no electricity and uses a kerosene lamps to light his shop and files to grind out his blades. He is a buckskinner and uses Elk horn for the handles.

He says his knives are all truly handmade and the rest of you are imposters.

Handmade is a true hands-on knife, designed and made by the maker not a shop assistant. The tools he uses do not determine if it's truly "Handmade" but the makers skill.

 
I've noticed alot of "handmade" knife makers don't do thier own heat treating like I do. Is this still a truly handmade knife when you send out a knife to be heat treated by the same company that does Benchmades knives?
 
In short, CNC is superior.

My opinion … I know.

It is entirely about "control" whether you hand grind with a rock or use multi-axis, computer numerically controlled precision equipment.

A “maker” transforms materials into a “vision” producing something “tangible”. The premium standard as to the intrinsic quality of any crafted item is how closely the “tangible” matches the makers “vision”.

A maker must use tools to accomplish the task. The tools do not add or detract value from the final product. The final product “is what it is” and how it came into being cannot change the fact that “it is”.

CNC in no way detracts.



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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
In short CNC is superior. My opinion … I know.

It is entirely about control whether you hand grind with a rock or use multi-axis, computer numerically controlled precision equipment.

A “maker” transforms materials into a “vision” producing something “tangible”. The premium standard as to the intrinsic quality of any crafted item is how closely the “tangible” matches the makers “vision”.

A maker must use tools to accomplish the task. The tools do not add or detract value from the final product. The final product “is what it is” and how it came into being cannot change the fact that “it is”.

CNC in no way detracts.


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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
There is a difference between a blade ground by a maker who uses his hands and his hands a a jig alone, or a blade that is ground using CNC. Inbetween you have little clamps and such devices you can attach to a blade to get things liek even plunge cuts (clamp on the ricasso area) or jigs you clamp the blade in and just pull it back and forth to get your grind (this is poorly articulated, but you know what I mean!)

I think if it makes a difference to your customer then you should tell them how you make your blades and go from there. There comes a point where you need some technology- I bet the guy who uses bellows and a hand crank doesn't make his own steel or mine iron ore or anything like that! Now we have to figure out where to draw the line.

The two essential elements to makign a blade are grinding and heat treating. I am learning to make knives and do jigless grinding but have to send the blades out for heat treat. When I start making knives for non-family members, I'll let people know that I don't do my own heat treat, no problem.

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"Come What May..."
 
This discussion is purely semantics. In the knife world I doubt we'll ever unanimously agree on the true definition of hand-made or hand-crafted. However, from a buyers perspective, I think the only important considerations should be quality and function.

How a maker achieves the level of quality he or she does is not important to me - what is important is that I can depend on the knife when I need it.

How functional a knife is depends on its design. If, for example, I had three fingers on my dominant hand (like the gentleman in the post about respirators
wink.gif
), I might require a "custom" handle...

I think the most important distinctions to make are not what tools are used. In fact, if a maker deliberately foregos high-tech equipment for something slower or less precise, he's wasting his time and most likely limiting himself in his potential to create a truly superior product. That's no good for the customer either. After all, weight and balance are SO important that absolute symmetry and precision are extremely valid concerns.

The only other concern, from a customer's standpoint, would be uniqueness. Some people want to be assured that no one else owns a knife just like theirs. If those are their wishes, they should simply tell the maker, and hope he can give them the highest quality product he is capable of producing at the agreed upon price.

OK I'm done.

[This message has been edited by Wulf (edited 10-24-2000).]
 
Just like everything else in life, IT'S RELATIVE. It's all about perception.

As Wulf said, there will most likely be no common ground on this issue without at least some deviance from it.

To argue that using technology is not making a "custom knife" is pretty rediculous to me.

How hypocritical are the guys that argue against jigs and CNC, yet seek the best heat-treating procedure to be done on the blade they ground from the latest alloy?

I used a jig to hollow grind for about 6 months. I quit using it because I was limited with it as far as the grinds I could do, not because I had issues about the authenticity of the knives made with it.

I find it silly that makers who have every piece of power equipment in their shop argue that a jig takes away the distinction of "hand-made." If you're going to get that technical about it, I agree that the standard would be a hacksaw, files, and a hand-drill, would it not?

I think the majority of this argument comes down to people wanting to think that they are right. Just like flat vs. hollow ground. Each has its place on different knives, but to a maker that only hollow grinds his hollow is superior, and vice versa.

I'm pretty sure this argument came up before, and the end result was the same as it seems to be this time.

In my opinion, make the best knife that you can...cutting, durability, aesthetics...and do it however you can
wink.gif


Nick

 
Hello,

I think using Jigs is Ok if thats the only way you can grind a decent looking blade, but i also can tell you it takes loads more skill to grind them Freehand and make them come out symetrical and true.

I think its ok to use a jig like i said, but atleast be upfront about it if somone asks.

Also using Jigs, cut out parts and such is fine for some people ,,,but remeber that just takes the SKills of the maker out of the picture and puts them with the machine that is doing the work ie...... CNC

I have known a few makers whos work is great looking, but without there JIGS for grinding
and replicating pantographs they would be lost at the grinding game.

I bet Michael Price, and Will&Fink
didnt use Jigs. And Neither do I.. :cool:

Regards,,,,Allen Blade

[This message has been edited by Allen Blade (edited 10-24-2000).]
 
Wulf!

Thank you. Sometimes we think the rest of the world has the same values we do and it's useful to see - and have explained - differeing views.

You made the point that, to you, quality and function are of paramount importance. I agree for production knives. I really like Ken Onion / Kershaw Ricochet. Nice blade shape - technically interesting - quality steel.... quality and function. Handmades are a little different for me. There is no way the guy with the coal forge and oil lamps can duplicate the precision of the CNC mill but I would happily pay many times the price - especially if he'd make the handle from a piece of wood that I picked up on some special adventure.

I guess it all comes down to honesty between the customer and the maker. That way, everyone gets what they want.

Rob!



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Rob Ridley
Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 


Hey Mark...Good to see more Northwest knifemakers posting here...After Allen Blade posted I thought I would add to the count
smile.gif


I'm working with a guy in Oregon who jig grinds blades...And you can tell it but he is getting better and if I had to do a large number I might jig it up...I haven't seen to many good ideas for jigs though..

Do you have a design that allows for all the complex curves on a blade? My thought is that with fixture time hand grinding would be about as fast unless you go to coolent spray and high speed grinding...

Have you seen the "Knifemaker" machine for sale in Blade magazine? Jason Jacobs will be selling this machine...He says he can hollow ground hardened D2 in about 2 minutes! Great for production but not handground IMO...

Having said that, we do jig up some of the drilling and I have jigs I use in sheathmaking...Jigs and fixtures are standard in most shops but they also don't say the work is "Handmade"

I'm guessing that at least with this crowd, hand grinding would be the minumum required content for custom vs. factory...

Running Dog

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Running Dog Knife Company

<A HREF="mailto:
runningdog@dog.com">
runningdog@dog.com</A>
www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
 
Jigs, CNC, pre-cut parts, "apprentices"? Just like the big manufacturers huh?

All are indeed timesavers, some may result in a better knife.

But, these techniques should turn $500 custom folder into a $250 "custom" folder. In reality, it doesn't, does it?

Shouldn't the buyer benefit from these techniques also? Like in lower prices?

When you buy a custom, you buy a piece of the maker and his talent, not his jigs.

If you can't do it freehand, you're not a Knifemaker. Period.

Selwyn
 
If makers are honest about their methods, who cares? It really comes down to what the customer is seeking and willing to pay for. Crafting a knife REQUIRES tools, and each maker needs to determine how much they are willing to rely on those tools. We should be happy that our industry allows us to use as much or as little in the way of tooling. Consider, for example, how much market there is for one-of-a-kind hand assembled automobiles.
I make knives because I find it satisfying. On the other hand, I do not have the patience for filing steel by the light of a lantern. I do not use grinding jigs because I enjoy the challenge of doing it freehand. While this may have slowed my progress, it is my choice to make.
RE: Doing your own HT. There are many reasons for farming this service out, ranging from wanting the best possible HT to being a fledgling maker without the financial resources to afford an oven and hardness tester.
 
What does the maker, the one that used a file in the dark to make his knife,say when a prospective customer asks"Was that knife Handmade"? Say HELL NO I used a file.It's all in what works for you.
Take Care
TJ SMITH
 
The price issue is interesting too, as has already been mentioned. When a maker starts using CNC do their prices drop? Do I need to ask that question?

I think that a lot of the problem too with this custom vs. factory bit is that CNC means computers, where jigs don't necessarily. If you clamp a blade into a jig but still need your hands to grind that is better than that hollow grinding machine or a CNC machine. By the way, the people who work with CNC machines in the factories are MACHINE OPERATORS, not knife makers. When the small guy starts using computer run machines, well, he becomes a machine operator too and "less" of a knife maker in that respect. Less in the respect that, as I stated earlier, I think grinding and heat treating are the two essential elements of knife making. If a computer is doing your grinding, well, are you a knife maker or a machine operator? I dunno.

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"Come What May..."
 
Bob Terzuola makes very nice folding knives. I think we all agree that he is a talented knifemaker. In his book he shows alot of the jigs he has made to duplicate parts for consistant good operating knives. It takes skill even when jigs are used to make all the parts neccesary for folders. He does his own heat-treating also. I dont think he uses a cnc. It seems to me that jigs are good if they give consistant results especially for the same model that is made over and over. One of a kinds may not need jigs. I believe a maker should be able to free-hand any of the operations also. In my opinion if the CNC is used it is not totally made from his skills and shouldnt be called hand made. Bruce
 
What an absolute load of bull sh*t question this is!!! I should know cause I asked it about 18 months ago. It was a load of crap back then and it still is a load of crap cause theres never gonna be an answer to it. You say tomato, I say tomater, you say potato, I say potater, ehhhhhhhh. In the end, you, the maker has to decide whats right and whats wrong for you. I do what I can to make the best knife I can for my customers. If using a grinding jig or a set of guide blocks helps, I'm usin em. When you get down to the nitty gritty, unless you make a knife using nothing but your hands, the knife isn't truely hand made in the pure sense of the word.

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Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!
http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
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