Hones vs stones.

I still like working my carbon steel and low alloy stainless blades on a Norton medium India benchstone, then finishing with fine ceramic for the microbevel. Something about the feel of blade steel on an India stone just pleases me :D and the finish quality is excellent for the grit/mesh.

Of course I use diamond hones for many things, but guess a part of me is still old school at heart....

Waterstones ... some of the woodworkers in my family are really into 'em, but I've never taken to them.
I can TOTALLY relate with this post! Of course, I drench my India stone in kerosene, so it smells up my garage for a couple of weeks! :D

I don't doubt that waterstones are great tools. I gouge mine all the time when I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing, which is often. My Nortons are now pretty much used for sharpening my straight razors, which they handle fine, that's more a reflection on my lack of skill than on their usefulness... But I've always been interested in the glass stones too...

I find that DMT's and ceramics give me the best feedback through my hands, so that's what I use. There's nothing quite like a ceramic micobevel grabbing the hair on your forearm. Or your wife's back... :eek: :D
 
Would everyone be mor comfortable if I just changed this statement
if I had to buy a new set of sharpening stuff with what I know now I'd get Diamond for everything 1200 grit and under and ceramics for higher grits.
To read something like this…
if I had to buy a new set of sharpening stuff with what I know now I'd get Diamond for everything DMT fine or maybe X fine grit and under and ceramics for higher grits than that.

I don't doubt that waterstones are great tools. I gouge mine all the time when I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing, which is often. My Nortons are now pretty much used for sharpening my straight razors, which they handle fine, that's more a reflection on my lack of skill than on their usefulness... But I've always been interested in the glass stones too...

I find that DMT's and ceramics give me the best feedback through my hands, so that's what I use.
Pretty much the same for me. My Shapton 1000 is my favorite water stone but I can even mess up on that one at times. I manyly only use my water stones if I’m refinishing a large bevel like a primary grind. I do see why woodworkers love water stones they are great for that kind of work.
 
I still like working my carbon steel and low alloy stainless blades on a Norton medium India benchstone, then finishing with fine ceramic for the microbevel. Something about the feel of blade steel on an India stone just pleases me :D and the finish quality is excellent for the grit/mesh.

Of course I use diamond hones for many things, but guess a part of me is still old school at heart....

Waterstones ... some of the woodworkers in my family are really into 'em, but I've never taken to them.
I can TOTALLY relate with this post! Of course, I drench my India stone in kerosene, so it smells up my garage for a couple of weeks! :D

I don't doubt that waterstones are great tools. I gouge mine all the time when I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing, which is often. My Nortons are now pretty much used for sharpening my straight razors, which they handle fine, that's more a reflection on my lack of skill than on their usefulness... But I've always been interested in the glass stones too...

I find that DMT's and ceramics give me the best feedback through my hands, so that's what I use. There's nothing quite like a ceramic micobevel grabbing the hair on your forearm. Or your wife's back... :eek: :D
Thanks, sodak. I was starting to feel like some sort of "Stone"-Age (groan!) throwback ... here in my cave, grizzled and hirsute, wearing nothing but a leopard-skin loin cloth, sharpening primitive blades on primitive India hones.

Which actually brings up something else ... IMO the nature of the scratch pattern left by different abrasives may be an important factor in sharpening. I've long felt -- and it makes sense -- that diamond hones leave a much deeper, V-type scoring on steel than do SiC or AO hones. I also suspect that AO, in turn, doesn't score the steel as deeply, or maybe I should say sharply, for a given grit as does SiC. And finally, ceramic leaves the least aggressive scratch pattern of all, which is why it is so favored for that final edge.

I believe this also explains why, when using diamond hones, it can take much longer to achieve a high quality, final edge using your fine ceramic Sharpmaker (for example) since for a given range of grit, the diamond hone isn't leaving nearly as clean an edge as the AO stone.

Of course a problem arises here with high alloy steels, since AO is in the same hardness range as vanadium carbide. This is why I've suggested before that a wider assortment of very fine diamond abrasive hones and rods are really what we need to get the most out of some of the new super steels, since little else will really work them cleanly, cutting hard carbides instead of either tearing them out, or just skipping over them.
 
It seems that Norton Crystolon stones cut nearly as fast and as deep as diamond.Their not offered in as fine a grit.DM
 
If I was buying all new this is the order I'd do it in.
1 Coarse 320 Blue and a Spyderco Medium
2 XX coarse 120
3 X fine Spyderco
4 Fine 600 red
5 Spyderco fine
I really think 4 and 5 are not needed but I'd still get them. I'd probably also get a DMT x fine 1200 green. I'd also stick to the 8 inch DMT without the dotted face.
 
The order of stones I'd purchase:Norton's large 2 grit crystolon coarse and fine.
Norton's large 2 grit India oil stone coarse and fine.
Norton's large 2 grit Arkansas stone fine and ultra fine.
Then a leather strop and load it w/ rouge.I like the results I get w/ these.DM
 
I'd be pretty much the same as db. DMT blue/red for most things, finished by Spyderco fine/UF ceramics. I would get another 2 sided Norton India for my carbon steels, the lovely kerosene smell (hey, it keeps everyone away so I can have some quality knife time), and just for the zen of it.

There's just nothing quite like sharpening in the evening in the garage on an India stone with a good beer listening to the crickets chirping. Unless there's a good cigar to go with it... :D
 
The term grit is thrown around loosely and it is very hard to get a correct measurement when everyone is using a differen chart. Using micron's as a measurement will give you more accuracy as there is only one size possable. All stones will also cut differently leaving different types of finishes for similar "grits" diamond stones for example will never yield the same finish as a waterstone because the abrasive particals are different in shape. The diamond stones particals being sharp and jagged and the waterstones being more round and smooth. The finish may appear different but the final edge sharpness is all pretty close, though each edge will cut differently in respect to what meida it was sharpened on.

I'm not taking it personal I just know better.

You'll never get to the bottom of it. Too many standards. Some rate on the largest particle, some on the average particle. 1/2 micron diamond dust is sold as 60,000 mesh and also as 25,000 mesh, and would be about 30,000 JIS grit in waterstones.

Here is a microscope shot of some 3M 15 micron silicon carbide finishing film
m1525dfc.jpg


Okay, what dimension is 15 microns? Look like a lot of irregular hunks sort of like crushed potato chips.

Here is a spyderco UF rod
superf25.jpg

Average grit looks to be about 2,000 JIS but the particles are not sharp like the SiC film... very rounded like ceramic burnishers. The finish it leaves is similar to the Lansky blue hone but seems to have more galling (pulls up balls of metal out of the surface that smear and dig ruts and streaks) At best I think it leaves a finish similar to an 8k waterstone, but with streaks and gouges that prevent it from making a good polishing stone for mirror finishing any sizable surface.

Garnets in Belgian Blue and yellow coticule stones are like 20 sided dice... round with shallow corners so they dig very shallow, wide V's in steel and leave a finer finish than the micron size would indicate. AlO and Chrome oxide are shaped more like little quartz crystals or foot balls and leave a rougher surface than garnet. SiC, if sintered so the grit can't contour to the work piece, just gouges the heck out of things, but if used loose, so the shards can lay flat, can produce a very smooth surface since the flatish plates will tend to slice off high spots in the steel (which is why it is used on a soft lap to finish metalurgical samples so their crystal structures can be examined under a microscope)

Diamond plates cut fast but leave a very chewed up surface because quite a number of the crystals were floating higher than average when the metal plate hardened and froze them in place. The high floaters will eventually break off to the average level of the rest of the diamonds as they break in but until then, they act like they are coarser than they should be (I have a 15 year old ez-lap 1200 that leaves a finish similar to a King 1000 grit stone, but it is broken in to the point that many people would consider it worn out, and still leaves too many scratches for polishing). Loose grit on a strop will leave a much better finish than a plate.
 
Great post Pam - Thanks for the pics!

And to think we are discussing one of the most quantifiable subject matters that we can discuss in this forum! Only considering grit size is like only considering a steel's composition - both are incomplete alone.
 
What is the max magnification?
Depends on the objectives and eyepieces used and digital magnification in the case of the camera which acts like a 20x eyepiece. I've got 5x,10x,25x,40x, 60x and 100x objectives (the last two are oil immersion lenses). The photos I posted were taken with the 25x
 
Pam thanks great pics. As partical size and shape do make a difference I think you can also argue that pressure used and feel, feedback from the hone is a big factore in the finish you end up with. I also think direction of the stroke on the hone also is a big factore. I think this is why I like different hones for different reasons. To polish a blade and large bevels my water stones are what I use, and finishing the edge I like ceramics. Heck I cann't even really decide on one level of finish for my edges sometimes I like a coarser edge and sometimes I want a more polished edge. :)
 
Played with different levels of pressure on a coarse side black silica hone and did notice a different level of finish. Going to try the same thing on a coarse diamond and see if I can tell a difference.
 
I am a bit late in jumping on this topic, but I thought with the previous confusion that a better comparison sheet would be appreciated.

I am a picky cus, and therefore have spent a great deal of time compiling this list since there are VERY few reliable refrences for the given grit sizes.

PLEASE let me know if you spot anything that is incorrect or anything you would like to have added, I update the list every time I find something I don't have yet.

http://www.theatkinsonfamily.org/Grit_Comparison.pdf
 
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