Khukuri Fighting Techniques?

[J W Bensinger]

Alan,

Here is a review of McLemore's book I did on Amazon.

"Given the books on several weapons that the author has published and the detail in this book on various ways of engaging the opponent, I will concede that the author probably knows how to wield a knife. However, he needs to spend a lot more time with kukris and Gurkhas before he writes a book about this particular blade. The kukri's geometry, balance and striking power differentiate it from a Bowie knife or a tomahawk. Many of the techniques illustrated herein might work with one of those weapons, but are ill advised with a kukri. Just look at the reference material used for this book. Very little related to Gurkha, nothing related to the kukri, unless you count the mentions of the weapon in Burton's Book of the Sword.

A basic rule of kukri combat techniques is that you do not cut into your own safety zone, or you remove yourself from the zone. Look at the basic downward cut illustrated on page 11 figure 6. Ignore that the illustration does not capture the essence of the reducing radius downward power cut of the kukri and focus on where the kukri is heading. Toward the person's own knee. The kukri has mass and momentum and the reducing radius power cut. That's what allows it to cleave German infantry helmets in WWI, for example. So in the heat of combat, when your opponent might parry your cut and add a bit of momentum down for the cut, you don't want it heading toward yourself. Other illustrations in the book (when talking about punching or hitting the opponent with your other hand) also put that hand and arm at risk to your own blade. Much better to keep your second hand inside the radius of the arc of the blade, and usually in a supporting role to the wrist of the hand wielding the weapon. The illustration on the cover shows one such example of this.

Unfortunately, there are no authentic reference works on the kukri that I know of, it is handed down, the same way I learned it. If you buy this book and use it, I suggest you make a wooden practice kukri first to practice the cuts and blocks. Experiment and stay safe.

And, yes, I do know something on the subject and taught kukri combat techniques to elements of the Singapore Gurkha Police Contingent."

If the author is suggesting cutting into one's own space with anything...that's all I need to know about that book. Smh.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

If the author is suggesting cutting into one's own space with anything...that's all I need to know about that book. Smh.

Cutting one's knee? The author explicitly warns against it. But sometimes you just have no time to reposition blade and legs. If there's an opening you might want to use it right there and then or not. It's up to you and the author just gives you options and informs you of advantages and disadvantages, like any good teacher would

To be fair the author is very upfront and honest about the nature of his experience or lack thereof regarding Kukris.
Thus the review criticising him for that isn't very creative.

The reviewer also states that Kuks went through steel helmets in WW1 which makes me question his experience with blades and armor in general. Maybe the helmets were lying on the ground and being batoned with a sledgehammer?
Be that as it may, I'd like to see evidence that the reviewer trained Gurkas and would like to know what made him qualified for this.
Maybe writing a better book would be in order?

 

[Scara]

Alan,

Here is a review of McLemore's book I did on Amazon.

"Given the books on several weapons that the author has published and the detail in this book on various ways of engaging the opponent, I will concede that the author probably knows how to wield a knife. However, he needs to spend a lot more time with kukris and Gurkhas before he writes a book about this particular blade. The kukri's geometry, balance and striking power differentiate it from a Bowie knife or a tomahawk. Many of the techniques illustrated herein might work with one of those weapons, but are ill advised with a kukri. Just look at the reference material used for this book. Very little related to Gurkha, nothing related to the kukri, unless you count the mentions of the weapon in Burton's Book of the Sword.

A basic rule of kukri combat techniques is that you do not cut into your own safety zone, or you remove yourself from the zone. Look at the basic downward cut illustrated on page 11 figure 6. Ignore that the illustration does not capture the essence of the reducing radius downward power cut of the kukri and focus on where the kukri is heading. Toward the person's own knee. The kukri has mass and momentum and the reducing radius power cut. That's what allows it to cleave German infantry helmets in WWI, for example. So in the heat of combat, when your opponent might parry your cut and add a bit of momentum down for the cut, you don't want it heading toward yourself. Other illustrations in the book (when talking about punching or hitting the opponent with your other hand) also put that hand and arm at risk to your own blade. Much better to keep your second hand inside the radius of the arc of the blade, and usually in a supporting role to the wrist of the hand wielding the weapon. The illustration on the cover shows one such example of this.

Unfortunately, there are no authentic reference works on the kukri that I know of, it is handed down, the same way I learned it. If you buy this book and use it, I suggest you make a wooden practice kukri first to practice the cuts and blocks. Experiment and stay safe.

And, yes, I do know something on the subject and taught kukri combat techniques to elements of the Singapore Gurkha Police Contingent."

Ah, so you're the one who wrote that. I read that one and decided against buying the book because of it. I have read all parts of the book that are available on the free preview, which was a surprising amount, and there are some interesting ideas, but not everything is of use. I also think his advocacy of an edge up grip, and using the reverse grip are more gimmicks than legitimate techniques.

 

[J W Bensinger]

Cutting one's knee? The author explicitly warns against it. But sometimes you just have no time to reposition blade and legs. If there's an opening you might want to use it right there and then or not.

My point was that if you're swinging at a two-leg target, and the arc of your swing intersects with your knee...you're doing it wrong. Any cut with that much follow-through is going to get one slotted very quickly if it misses, because the recovery time is gonna be too dang long

 

[Shavru]

Meh, The picture from the book posted by Jens below makes my comment irrelevant. I will leave it here so the thread doesn't change too much, but seeing the picture in question, totally negates what I thought was being said:


Having very little experience with knife fighting but a LOT of experience with sword fighting from a few different schools. I will have to agree with Jim. A swing through the planes that would put your knee in the way is just plain a bad choice. Even if you do not hit your knee having your blade in that position leaves you wide open for pretty much ANY strike that your opponent chooses. So in other words expect the fight to end very shortly after that swing...one way or the other. Now I am not saying I would NEVER take such an opening. But I certainly would never practice nor plan for a tactic that relies on several unlikely actions by yourself and your opponent and any Sensei would issue a "dame" to you for doing so (usually with a shinai along side the head if my own experience is anything to go by, but then I pushed the limits ALL the time and my Sensei's most effective way to "reel me in" was hikitate-geiko with him)

 

[Scara]

Hmm, I'm working on my own manual of fighting with the kukri, and I think I will have to add in a little bit about minding the arc of a swing and where it will end. I think I've got something in there about avoiding strikes that are easily parried or redirected into yourself, but I don't remember. It's been some time since I worked on it.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Here is the picture in question. Since its not a video the author had to draw it in different positions. They all overlap at the shoulder ( duh, it is the pivot of the swing) but even then I can't see how the reviewer thought it would be swinging into the leg? The text also gives no hint at that. It could easily be aimed left or right of it and not arching through it. Did the reviewer assume the worst for no reason? Did he want to write something negative to show off and have an opportunity to mention his training of Gurkas?

 

[Dobe_1]

Think of swinging an axe. Once the momentum begins, it's difficult to stop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bawanna]

I'm starting to think this pony has been rode down. What I know about knife fighting could be summarized on the head of a small pin.

I do know that jabbing is involved and that seems to be what this thread has evolved into.

Maintain civility. Live and let live. Don't get personal.

Peace / Out.

 

[davidf99]

Jens:

Figure 6 shows the blade swinging in a large downward arc (arm pretty much fully extended) that would end either left of the knee, right of the knee, or in the knee. If it arcs left of the knee it could sever the femoral artery or other important parts of the anatomy. If the arc goes outside the knee it would likely throw the wielder way off balance as others have noted, and leave him exposed to almost any kind of counterattack. The author seems to assume that the target of the strike will stop or slow down the blade, as shown in the "impact lines" in the part of the diagram labeled 3. As most of the people in this forum know, even a tree branch doesn't always stop the swing of a khukuri, let alone the limb of a human opponent. And what if the opponent moves aside and the blade has nothing but air to stop its swing?

I don't claim any special expertise on the subject, but it's pretty clear that khukuris tend to be a lot heavier and more forward balanced than most fighting knives, and therefore many of the techniques would be different, both for effectiveness and safety. Especially techniques that require precise control of the blade and changes of direction.

Also, the picture shows a man standing virtually upright. It's not clear if his right knee is bent at all, or how much. That has a direct bearing on whether the swing of a heavy blade would throw him off balance toward the right. Martial arts in general place a good deal of emphasis on footwork and balance. Maybe the text goes into that, but Figure 6 by itself certainly doesn't.

I've spent a lot of time looking at different kinds of knives on the Bladeforums Exchange, even though I rarely buy them. I've seen hundreds of blades, and I pay attention to length, weight and other features. Interestingly, most people selling knives don't even give the weight, which suggests that they don't consider it an important factor. That might be true for relatively lightweight knives. The vast majority of blades that people consider "fighting knives" (sometimes by a stretch of the imagination) are smaller, lighter and balanced differently than most khukuris, including the military model khukuris issued in Nepal and to troops in the world wars.

In summary, I would take McLemore with a grain of salt, at least where khukuris are concerned.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Jens:

Figure 6 shows the blade swinging in a large downward arc (arm pretty much fully extended) that would end either left of the knee, right of the knee, or in the knee. If it arcs left of the knee it could sever the femoral artery or other important parts of the anatomy. If the arc goes outside the knee it would likely throw the wielder way off balance as others have noted, and leave him exposed to almost any kind of counterattack. The author seems to assume that the target of the strike will stop or slow down the blade, as shown in the "impact lines" in the part of the diagram labeled 3. As most of the people in this forum know, even a tree branch doesn't always stop the swing of a khukuri, let alone the limb of a human opponent. And what if the opponent moves aside and the blade has nothing but air to stop its swing?

I don't claim any special expertise on the subject, but it's pretty clear that khukuris tend to be a lot heavier and more forward balanced than most fighting knives, and therefore many of the techniques would be different, both for effectiveness and safety. Especially techniques that require precise control of the blade and changes of direction.

Also, the picture shows a man standing virtually upright. It's not clear if his right knee is bent at all, or how much. That has a direct bearing on whether the swing of a heavy blade would throw him off balance toward the right. Martial arts in general place a good deal of emphasis on footwork and balance. Maybe the text goes into that, but Figure 6 by itself certainly doesn't.

I've spent a lot of time looking at different kinds of knives on the Bladeforums Exchange, even though I rarely buy them. I've seen hundreds of blades, and I pay attention to length, weight and other features. Interestingly, most people selling knives don't even give the weight, which suggests that they don't consider it an important factor. That might be true for relatively lightweight knives. The vast majority of blades that people consider "fighting knives" (sometimes by a stretch of the imagination) are smaller, lighter and balanced differently than most khukuris, including the military model khukuris issued in Nepal and to troops in the world wars.

In summary, I would take McLemore with a grain of salt, at least where khukuris are concerned.

Thank you for writing it down. Maybe I don't see it because my arms hang down on my sides and not on the front of my legs. Even if they just fall straight down no Kukri would end up in my knee or thigh. When swung down and curved to the left it'll be left of my knee long before its at its height. If curved to the right it'll be out of the knees plane even faster given that my arm joints are much more apart than my knees.
Now if you are talking about the left leg forward and swinging towards it in the hope that it gets somehow stopped in between that would be well, stupid, and again nothing the book suggests.

We block with sabers in all directions and the lower right isn't prohibited and doesn't bring anybody out of balance no matter which leg is forward. If a blade comes from there you better block it or you'll not only be exposed but actually hit.
Without special instructions, nobody ever hit themselves with blunt swords (except while grappling) not even me. Hitting the ground happens to newbies but more experienced guys dont even overswing when the target suddenly disappears. Though with sharps we still take extra care that if the tatami is overcome too easily and the sword continues without control that it doesn't end up where it shouldn't, even if most likely it wouldn't anyways.

It's kind of a non issue if the student isn't completely unusual and I've never met anybody like it.

Your points are all valid but don't apply to the book in my opinion. The critique just picked one picture which could be misunderstood (with some effort) and ignores the rest. There are dozens of pages full with illustrations and if any other pictures were questionable I'm sure we'd have heard about them as well ;-)
So they are all fine I guess and the one I posted could be an issue if one does crazy things and ignores what the author writes and what common sense commands.

I also don't think all techniques in the book are super useful. Do I really need a second hand on the Kukri spine to block something? It makes sense on lighter escrima sticks when facing a heavier weapon. The short lever and mass of a Kukris however will even block a sword without much force. Is it a completely useless technique? Maybe not when just blocking staticly or facing a two handed sword or club of some sorts.
I wouldn't train it much but it's still an option to keep in mind.

Do you have a better book which you can suggest.

 

[Scara]

Thank you for writing it down. Maybe I don't see it because my arms hang down on my sides and not on the front of my legs. Even if they just fall straight down no Kukri would end up in my knee or thigh. When swung down and curved to the left it'll be left of my knee long before its at its height. If curved to the right it'll be out of the knees plane even faster given that my arm joints are much more apart than my knees.
Now if you are talking about the left leg forward and swinging towards it in the hope that it gets somehow stopped in between that would be well, stupid, and again nothing the book suggests.

We block with sabers in all directions and the lower right isn't prohibited and doesn't bring anybody out of balance no matter which leg is forward. If a blade comes from there you better block it or you'll not only be exposed but actually hit.
Without special instructions, nobody ever hit themselves with blunt swords (except while grappling) not even me. Hitting the ground happens to newbies but more experienced guys dont even overswing when the target suddenly disappears. Though with sharps we still take extra care that if the tatami is overcome too easily and the sword continues without control that it doesn't end up where it shouldn't, even if most likely it wouldn't anyways.

It's kind of a non issue if the student isn't completely unusual and I've never met anybody like it.

Your points are all valid but don't apply to the book in my opinion. The critique just picked one picture which could be misunderstood (with some effort) and ignores the rest. There are dozens of pages full with illustrations and if any other pictures were questionable I'm sure we'd have heard about them as well ;-)
So they are all fine I guess and the one I posted could be an issue if one does crazy things and ignores what the author writes and what common sense commands.

I also don't think all techniques in the book are super useful. Do I really need a second hand on the Kukri spine to block something? It makes sense on lighter escrima sticks when facing a heavier weapon. The short lever and mass of a Kukris however will even block a sword without much force. Is it a completely useless technique? Maybe not when just blocking staticly or facing a two handed sword or club of some sorts.
I wouldn't train it much but it's still an option to keep in mind.

Do you have a better book which you can suggest.

I'd suggest mine, but it's not even close to finished, and I've had a look at some portions of what I've written and am shaking my head.

As for the supported block, I can think of one use, and that is during a bind and wind around an opponent's blade. But you are right about the leverage of the kukri. In fact the dropped blade of the kukri adds to its leverage and helps keep the other weapon bound so you can wind around it. In particular I've found that a kukri can really outlever a quarterstaff, as well as a rifle.