knife tests .com?

[Joe Talmadge]

hardheart: You gotta be kidding me. He's a one-man party on a stick. No way we can afford to lose him.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Knife enthusiast end users are more impressed with 'Golly Gee Willikers' circus side show entertainment, and one shouldn't belittle this predeliction or attempt to denbunk it's value.

Well that is all they have been shown for a long time. However many makers such as Cashen has now started a move towards both debunking this nonsense and offering real performance data. Time will tell how much interest this is for that viewpoint. Personally I can tell you that in the eight years I have been involved I have seen a massive increase in more quantitification. Now yes it still is no where close to what you would see in a IEEE document and it is lightyears away from standards, but lets be sensible. These are hobbiests and tradesmen. If you ask a carpenter about his opinion on a hammer so you really expect NIST level research, no. But does that mean no information can be obtained and you would critize him for not being at that level, no.

-Cliff

 

[Sal Glesser]

Cliff
RE:"Communication of information is dependent not simply on the quality or level of content but also on the manner."

You are right! I broke one of the key heuristics of good communication- speak the user's language- then again, I assumed that since the thread was about testing that I WAS already speaking the lingo. I was wrong! I should really spend more time on a forum before posting. Anyway, I think the main lessons learned are:
1) Understanding what the 'audience' wants to see is more important that knowing what you want to show them or showing them what you think they need to know.
2) Metrics and science only matter to performance engineers. Knife enthusiast end users are more impressed with 'Golly Gee Willikers' circus side show entertainment, and one shouldn't belittle this predeliction or attempt to denbunk it's value.
3) The concept of testing a knife in a manner that's aligned with it's intended purpose in empirical trials is pointless in educating or informing a community that doesn't actually use knives but merely wants to know what thier endurance to unrealistic torture might be. Simply put, I was reflecting improperly on perfectly valid experiments for the particular community of interest! As I have in other domains, I stuck my professional finger into the wrong pie!

Hi Moodino,

The knife industry, while old and seemingly simple, is actually unique and quite complicated. In a world where most may decisions are based on appearance (cars, houses, mates, etc) performance testing can be difficult.

In the sports industry, you standardise the equipment (tennis balls, size of net, court, etc.) and the test is with the performer.

In autos, you have more variables, the diriver, car (with rules) and track, crew, etc.

In the knife industry, you have many variables as Cliff mentioned, but you also have the mfrs trying to "sell" their products which sometimes distorts impressions. Separating matter with a direct force object (no rotation, like a drill or saw) still has quite a few variables; force, direction, geometry, material, edge thickness, hardness, repetition, etc. How do you quantify ergonomics? for all hands? (which are also all different).

CATRA has been trying for many years to continually come up with consistent methods and equipment for testing. They are to be applauded for their achievements.

Much of the testing is done by hobbyists, which can have more passion that "professionals". Cliff has been doing destructive and performance testing for years. While often controversial, he is steadfast and his information is usually valuable. Vassili has created his own sharpness tests.

As a mfr, we have invested in testing equipment like CATRA edge testers to be able to "know" as much as we can to proivde for our customers. But there is still a lot of "voodoo" (experience?) in knife making and using.

"Golly Gee Willikers' circus side show" comments are insulting in any language or industry. Respect should be mutual. Knowing how to test horsepower doesn't mean you can drive the car. A sharp edge "on paper" still must cut the paper to be perceived valuable. "Walk the talk".

When we first began making knives, companies didn't even tell the kind of steel being used. It was "trade secret". We were among of the first to share and promote that information (25 years ago), so as Cliff mentioned, we've come a long way.

The group attracted to this arena are interested, passionate and hungry for knowledge, but also skeptical and quick to point out questions. Your information is no doubt valuable and your ability to test is also valuable. Perhaps your interest in the "edge" might grow passion.

Your comments on "language" are accurate. If you expect to be useful on a sailboat, you have to know a halyard, from a cleat. The captain cannot tell you to "hook the thing to the thing" and expect results.

sal

 

[Stubai]

Re Knifetests.com...

My question is this: why are these knives subjected to gross abuse which falls out of the range of 'normal use' in most situations? Perhaps this is a question of using the proper tool for the job at hand. Years ago, it was clearly established that a 3.5 pound properly sharpened axe would cut a tree down faster and cleaner than any bowie knife. This is a matter of fact. A normal sized person can generate great force with an axe as a result of the physics involved. Who can argue with this logic?

Is there some reason people are attempting to use the wrong tool for such a job? I suppose a tree could be cut down with a pen knife. Why go to the effort when a 6 hp chainsaw does a MUCH better job. Perhaps we have too much time on our hands...

 

[Moodino]

The short answer is one I'm exploring myself in a project not related to Knifetests.com
- If a person had a choice of the following packages to bug out into the woods with, which would be the most logical and practical choice given these parameters:
- Availability of backwoods with a mix of standing and fallen timber
- Availability of medium sized game - deer for example
- Need to construct shelter for between 2 and 30 nights.
- Need to defend against unspecified attackers
- Need to cut, dig and chop
Here are the packages:
- Given- small bladed knife (1"-3"), Second middle sized knife (3.5"-6")
- Variables= A) A combination of machete,cleaver & Axe weighing no more than 600 gr. B) An axe weighing no more than 600 gr. and C) A knife weighing no more than 600 gr.
So the challenge is to discuss and identify the most suitable variable in the package. You notice I haven't even discussed specific tasks, but you get the picture!

CLIFF- you might want to pony up the money for Nigel Bevan's latest addition to the ISO20282 Suite of Standards. 20282.3 has just been released. If I can get a complimnentary copy from him I'll forward it to you for academic comment.:thumbup:

Re Knifetests.com...

My question is this: why are these knives subjected to gross abuse which falls out of the range of 'normal use' in most situations? Perhaps this is a question of using the proper tool for the job at hand. Years ago, it was clearly established that a 3.5 pound properly sharpened axe would cut a tree down faster and cleaner than any bowie knife. This is a matter of fact. A normal sized person can generate great force with an axe as a result of the physics involved. Who can argue with this logic?

Is there some reason people are attempting to use the wrong tool for such a job? I suppose a tree could be cut down with a pen knife. Why go to the effort when a 6 hp chainsaw does a MUCH better job. Perhaps we have too much time on our hands...

 

[hardheart]

Re Knifetests.com...

My question is this: why are these knives subjected to gross abuse which falls out of the range of 'normal use' in most situations? Perhaps this is a question of using the proper tool for the job at hand. Years ago, it was clearly established that a 3.5 pound properly sharpened axe would cut a tree down faster and cleaner than any bowie knife. This is a matter of fact. A normal sized person can generate great force with an axe as a result of the physics involved. Who can argue with this logic?

Is there some reason people are attempting to use the wrong tool for such a job? I suppose a tree could be cut down with a pen knife. Why go to the effort when a 6 hp chainsaw does a MUCH better job. Perhaps we have too much time on our hands...

This would be an excellent question to ask the manufacturers who have advertised such testing for years.

 

[HoB]

Cliff
RE:"Communication of information is dependent not simply on the quality or level of content but also on the manner."

You are right! I broke one of the key heuristics of good communication- speak the user's language- then again, I assumed that since the thread was about testing that I WAS already speaking the lingo. I was wrong! I should really spend more time on a forum before posting. Anyway, I think the main lessons learned are:
1) Understanding what the 'audience' wants to see is more important that knowing what you want to show them or showing them what you think they need to know.
2) Metrics and science only matter to performance engineers. Knife enthusiast end users are more impressed with 'Golly Gee Willikers' circus side show entertainment, and one shouldn't belittle this predeliction or attempt to denbunk it's value.
3) The concept of testing a knife in a manner that's aligned with it's intended purpose in empirical trials is pointless in educating or informing a community that doesn't actually use knives but merely wants to know what thier endurance to unrealistic torture might be. Simply put, I was reflecting improperly on perfectly valid experiments for the particular community of interest! As I have in other domains, I stuck my professional finger into the wrong pie!

This post just made very clear that you are not to be taken seriously on professional or hobbiest basis. You are a simple wannabe scientist who thinks that it is more important to "talk the lingo" than to understand the meaning of the tests performed and their impact on the user, after all for whom do you do these test? Oh I forgot they are something to achieve self-satisfaction....also called masturbation. And I appologize for being so abrasive. If you were to sit down with me over a cup of coffee, you would never guess either.

I have seen all kinds of scientists, but your are the worst kind....the one that gives the species that I happen to belong to as well, a bad name. Which is precisely why I take issue with your posts. :jerkit: for you. People like you write the owners manual to Windows, which is probably the stongest insult that can be handed out to anyone in a technical field.

I do science for a living and usually a lot longer than 8 hours a day.....do you really think I want to fumble through models, statistical deviations and normal distributions when I come here? To me this place is fun (or is at least meant to be).

 

[Moodino]

Hey fella. I don't find you abrasive at all, if you knew the garbage I live amongst here in the 'Nations Capitol' . Anyway. you might want to point your browser to BritishBlades to get a gander at some more really bad science. Hey I'll never begrudge folks thier moment of glory and you are more than welcome to poop on anything you want to poop on . Enjoy the movies friend!

This post just made very clear that you are not to be taken seriously on professional or hobbiest basis. You are a simple wannabe scientist who thinks that it is more important to "talk the lingo" than to understand the meaning of the tests performed and their impact on the user, after all for whom do you do these test? Oh I forgot they are something to achieve self-satisfaction....also called masturbation. And I appologize for being so abrasive. If you were to sit down with me over a cup of coffee, you would never guess either.

I have seen all kinds of scientists, but your are the worst kind....the one that gives the species that I happen to belong to as well, a bad name. Which is precisely why I take issue with your posts. :jerkit: for you. People like you write the owners manual to Windows, which is probably the stongest insult that can be handed out to anyone in a technical field.

I do science for a living and usually a lot longer than 8 hours a day.....do you really think I want to fumble through models, statistical deviations and normal distributions when I come here? To me this place is fun (or is at least meant to be).

 

[Harry Bauls]

This post just made very clear that you are not to be taken seriously on professional or hobbiest basis. You are a simple wannabe scientist who thinks that it is more important to "talk the lingo" than to understand the meaning of the tests performed and their impact on the user, after all for whom do you do these test? Oh I forgot they are something to achieve self-satisfaction....also called masturbation. And I appologize for being so abrasive. If you were to sit down with me over a cup of coffee, you would never guess either.

I have seen all kinds of scientists, but your are the worst kind....the one that gives the species that I happen to belong to as well, a bad name. Which is precisely why I take issue with your posts. :jerkit: for you. People like you write the owners manual to Windows, which is probably the stongest insult that can be handed out to anyone in a technical field.

I do science for a living and usually a lot longer than 8 hours a day.....do you really think I want to fumble through models, statistical deviations and normal distributions when I come here? To me this place is fun (or is at least meant to be).

I agree with your view. :thumbup:

Moodino is just a windbag. He knows nothing about knives, but he throws lucrative terminology from his work which has nothing to do with knives either or knifemaking or testing, but he makes himself try to sound like a professional. The funny part is that not one of his postings has anything to say about knives, it is just a bunch of words strung together with knife in there somewhere.

Your professional credentials are worthless here as they relate not at all with this industry. Instead of trying to show off and showing how little you know, why don't you actually listen to those that do know and do test and maybe you will learn something.

 

[Firestrike]

Blast from the past here, so I am sorry for bringing this one back from the grave.

First and foremost I would like to point out that I am a regular guy with a boring job and have no knowledge of metalurgy ( hopefully I spelled that right ), and I have no affilation with any manufacturer.

The point I would like to make is that once upon a time in my life (years ago) any knife was a good knife even quickie mart cheapies, as time passed and after buying many catalog blades ( think BudK ) and breaking them after a few hours of fun I finally ponied up about $65 to get a KaBar. Holy crap I thought this is the best knife in the world, this thing was good enough to actually do stuff. Many a year passed and I discovered youtube, and it was there I found guys like Nut-N-Fancy and Noss as well as many other people who talk about how awesome thier knife is but there isn't a single scratch on the blade.

So after some real extensive research (hours of youtube videos, tons of google searches, and reading many Many MANY reviews) I finally dropped some serious money on a "real knife". $140 dollars later I owned a Tops Firestrike 45 the 1/4" thick version not the 3/16" thick style that Nut-N-Fancy destroyed while battoning. Boy I thought this is THE BLADE TO END ALL BLADES, to this day I still own and abuse the Tops knife, of course I don't regularly chop skyscrapers down, but the knife really is capable of a lot.

Since then I now own a few Tops which are really impressive for the price and 100% American made, I also own Bucks, KaBars, Mora's, Gerbers, Leathermans and so on. My most recent addition is a BUSSE TGLB, yep I ponied up the almost $500 to get Orange and Black G-10, this doesn't even include the cost of a sheath and the only reason why Jerry Busse recieved my business is because of guys like Noss. I have to say that watching somebody destroy a blade (something I am not really willing to do with a $500 knife, let alone a $100+ knife) gives a very strong reference of just how hard I can really use the knife should the situation EVER arise.

Congrats to all who have steadfastly used and abused knives in the most unorthodox fashion possible, it inspires a confidence of sorts knowing that if and earthquake happened and I was trapped in the ruins of a building, my Busse, Tops, enter name of your choice here, might be the difference in getting out alive or leaving in a body bag.

Try beating a BudK knife through anything but paper and cardboard and you will soon understand and appreciate the truely fine blades some manufacturers craft, and perhaps some of you can ease up on the guys who destroy knives to see if they can and do live up to extreme performance standards.

As unlikely as it is that you will ever need to chop your way out of a building or car, your life may someday depend on what you have on you, and for me Noss and others like Cliff Stamp have given me some piece of mind, without having to buy two of every blade so I can destroy one of them just to see what the blade will do.

 

[WRGreen]

It seems people really get riled up about destruction demonstrations, especially when their champions get thrown into the lion's den. Sometimes it shatters the "Johnnie-on-the-spot~I'm gonna save the world with my knife" fantasy, sometimes it validates the equipment. This thread has wandered everywhere through the solicitation of donations,(my Loveless is in the mail, BTW) to name calling, through more "this is my final post"s than "Final" KISS reunion tours, to semantics and methodolgy battles. I kinda like the occasional dose of sadistic knife porn; usually late at night, when no one's watching.....