Kubaton Legality In CA

[wolfindagger]

heys guys. new here (as a member) and exploring the site I found this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=808363
where exodus125 is having a contest on some very cool anodized titanium stuff he makes. I want to enter the contest because A. I like his work. B. its free. C. that random heat anodized kubaton looks awesome.

I've known about kubatons for awhile, never got around though into seriously looking to buy one. Part of the reason is I am not sure they are legal in California. If any of you know the answer or have had experience with kubatons, please share.

Thanks!

Peace Out.

 

[glistam]

Making kubotans illegal in any jurisdiction is nearly impossible. It's just a stick. You have to ban all pens and AA flashlights too.

The simplicity of the kubotan makes me confused as to why people would manufacture purpose-made ones in the first place. Other than being a "talisman" self-defense item or just being "tacti-cool", there is little benefit over a AA maglight or a County Comm Embassy Pen (which comes in aluminum, steel, copper and titanium)

 

[knifenut43]

Kubotans are not specificly mentioned in 12020(a) PC, therefor they are not illegal to carry. It's what you use it for that can cause a problem. If the kubotan winds up stuck in someone's eye or something drastic like that, it may be interpreted as a deadly weapon and a person might be charged accordingly. This is known as the "Attended Circumstances Rule".

 

[glistam]

Kubotans are not specificly mentioned in 12020(a) PC, therefor they are not illegal to carry. It's what you use it for that can cause a problem. If the kubotan winds up stuck in someone's eye or something drastic like that, it may be interpreted as a deadly weapon and a person might be charged accordingly. This is known as the "Attended Circumstances Rule".

And at that point the real concern is the assault and/or battery (240 & 242 PC) charge that's inevitably coming.

 

[risen]

...If the kubotan winds up stuck in someone's eye or something drastic like that, it may be interpreted as a deadly weapon and a person might be charged accordingly. This is known as the "Attended Circumstances Rule".

And at that point the real concern is the assault and/or battery (240 & 242 PC) charge that's inevitably coming.

Not if it's self-defense (I know, knifenut43 said "may be" & "might", still wanted to point out self-defense).

 

[wolfindagger]

Quote: Glistam:
“Making kubotans illegal in any jurisdiction is nearly impossible. It's just a stick. You have to ban all pens and AA flashlights too.

The simplicity of the kubotan makes me confused as to why people would manufacture purpose-made ones in the first place. Other than being a "talisman" self-defense item or just being "tacti-cool", there is little benefit over a AA maglight or a County Comm Embassy Pen (which comes in aluminum, steel, copper and titanium) “

Agreed, good point. I think it is very much for the tacti-cool effect. However, I do think that if you are forced into a self defense situation, perhaps if you know you have a pen and a kubaton, and your brain automatically thinks of it as “this one is for writing with” and “this one is for defending with” in the high stress of the situation your brain may default into grabbing the kubaton and may neglect even considering the option of the pen. Who knows? Just my thought on maybe why they make them specifically. Also probably because they know people will buy it, again leading back to for the reason of the tacti coolness. Good observation.

Quote: knifenut43:
“Kubotans are not specificly mentioned in 12020(a) PC, therefor they are not illegal to carry. “

True, they are not mentioned, but 12020(a)(7) says
(7) As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device
or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for
purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either
protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the
force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving
the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the
hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of
projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a
blow.

Technically this is what a kubaton is used for, although it obviously is not brass knuckles in the traditional sense. So because of the “Attended Circumstances Rule,” would that mean that it is legal to own and carry, and even use, but only used in a self defense way, as Risen mentions.
Also because kubatons are only “ worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand” during self defense use and not during carry, they are legal because of this as well, correct?

Thanks for your help

Peace Out.

 

[risen]

...Technically this is what a kubaton is used for, although it obviously is not brass knuckles in the traditional sense. So because of the “Attended Circumstances Rule,” would that mean that it is legal to own and carry, and even use, but only used in a self defense way, as Risen mentions.

Also because kubatons are only “ worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand” during self defense use and not during carry, they are legal because of this as well, correct?

Are you referring to Attendant Circumstance?

If so, this could get lengthy. If you'd like a little more detail in this area, let me know and I'll forward you some info. The reason I'd prefer not going into it here is that it's not as cut & dried as some may interpret, and it's also not complete, in and of itself.

Carrying an actual dedicated kubotan and/or kubotan-style instrument may develop complications depending on how & why it's used. That said, *if* it was clearly self-defense, I don't believe there'd be much burden, if any, falling on you.

I have kubotans. I've trained with kubotans. I've used kubotans. I haven't had any problems. I have rounded-end tactical pens and have used them as kubotans, as well, no probs.

What I will never carry are those extreme tactical kubotans & pens with sharp points and/or teeth. If I'm going to carry one of those, I may as well just carry a spike (it's a heck of a lot cheaper, but would probably then be illegal). My recommendation, stay away from those for EDC. If you want to collect them for novelty/display, enjoy.

My simple & economical suggestion would be to buy some heavy metal pharmaceutical pens from places like ebay. I usually get them for around $5 - $10 each. They're very sturdy and work well as kubotans. I've used them successfully. They go through inspection/s with no problems, at least, for me. They're cheap and easy to replace. They're not a dedicated defense item, so it can simplify things if you end up having to use them in that manner. Yes, they will stabilize the fist. And, you can write with them.

I've got a few and will post pics tomorrow.

If you really want to carry something pointy and/or sharp, just carry a folder (knife) with a handle that can be used like a kubotan (one that's legal, of course). I'm sure you can find a model that'll suit your hand just fine. In a defense situation, using it closed should work okay. Also, if the assailant escalated the situation, you already have the knife in your hand and should be able to easily/quickly open it.

Hope this helps.

Btw, just for the record, I'm not an attorney.

 

[risen]

Okay, here's a quick pic from my phone. Did it on the run, so it's a little blurry.

Still, it should give an idea of how some regular pens might compare with kubotan size/style.

In the middle, there's a new kubo still in its plastic. To the left, some prototype variations, and then a koppo & yawara. To the right, some pharmaceutical pens, a flashlight just to the right of a Boker knife, then another pen. I've got other similar/related items. Some I bought, some I made. What's pictured here should suffice, though.

About the pens, there are only a few pharmaceutical companies that use this model, but there are other similar models around. And, you may want to try a few different designs anyway, till you find something that works for you. Some of them are rock solid.

Oh, one last thing, when I said:

...*if* it was clearly self-defense, I don't believe there'd be much burden, if any, falling on you.

I meant to add that attendant circumstance would probably not even apply if it is self-defense because you wouldn't have been the aggressor/assailant (ie, no charges), basically speaking and in my layman opinion.

 

[wolfindagger]

So would you say then that kubatons are not considered like a brass knuckle under state law then?


cool, thank you for taking the time to take a picture.
Good tip about the pharmaceutical pens, when you see them like that in the picture, they hold up pretty well in size against the purpose made kubatons. Do you think they weigh about the same?

In the picture you mentioned a, “koppo & yawara” I've heard of yawara's before, but figured they were basically the same thing as kubatons. Is that what a traditional kubaton made out of wood is called? Also, I have never heard of a koppo before, how is it different?

Oh also you said that you have made your own kubatons. How do you make them and what materials do you use?

Also, because you helped me on the questions I had about the municipal codes in Placentia, would a kubaton fall under the “bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm” definition or would it be considered a non-lethal alternative? I've heard some people say that a kubaton can be used lethally, is this true?

Do you know of any good resources, books, websites or charts showing the strike points? I've seen a few videos on youtube of kubaton demonstrations (which was pretty impressive given the small size) but probably not enough to know proper technique if ever needed to use in a self defense role.


Quote: risen:
“I meant to add that attendant circumstance would probably not even apply if it is self-defense because you wouldn't have been the aggressor/assailant (ie, no charges)”

so the attendant circumstance rule is only for criminals? I'm sorry, I know nothing about it, I just mentioned it because knifenut43 did.


Quote Risen:
“What I will never carry are those extreme tactical kubotans & pens with sharp points and/or teeth.”

Like this:

since the glassbreaker could be used in an emergency situation like a car crash and your trapped in the car, I wonder, do you think there would be a problem keeping one of these in a car but not carrying it with you?


Quote: Risen:
“If you really want to carry something pointy and/or sharp, just carry a folder (knife) with a handle that can be used like a kubotan (one that's legal, of course).”

yep, will do


Thanks again for all of your help, Risen!

Peace Out.

 

[risen]

So would you say then that kubatons are not considered like a brass knuckle under state law then?

Personally, I don't believe they're like knuckles, especially if/when used for manipulation/compliance (pressure points, joint locks, etc...). Some don't agree.

Good tip about the pharmaceutical pens, when you see them like that in the picture, they hold up pretty well in size against the purpose made kubatons. Do you think they weigh about the same?

Yes.

In the picture you mentioned a, “koppo & yawara” I've heard of yawara's before, but figured they were basically the same thing as kubatons. Is that what a traditional kubaton made out of wood is called? Also, I have never heard of a koppo before, how is it different?

Basically, Yawaras were around before Kubotans and they tend to be a little bigger. Many are tapered or shaped/molded for a better grip.

Koppos are sort of a modification by adding string to secure the either a yawara or a kubotan to a couple of your fingers. For some, better control when striking/thrusting and locking techniques.

Oh also you said that you have made your own kubatons. How do you make them and what materials do you use?

Fastest & easiest way is with wood. Just go to the hardware store and by a wood dowel rod. From that, you can make several kubo sticks. What's great about this is that you can cut them specifically for your hand width, leaving about a 1/2" protruding out of each side of hand/fist. Can also cut from a plastic rod. Can also choose from the 5/8", 1/2", 3/4", 1" diameters. Again, whatever you feel most comfortable with. Very inexpensive. Just sand the edges a little, drill a hole if for a keyring, good to go. Once you get some experience making your own, you can shell out for nicer/harder woods.

There's at least one ebay seller than makes some nice ones, like the yawara in the pic. I got that one on ebay. Also, do a google for "cooley sticks". Very nice work.

Also, because you helped me on the questions I had about the municipal codes in Placentia, would a kubaton fall under the “bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm” definition or would it be considered a non-lethal alternative? I've heard some people say that a kubaton can be used lethally, is this true?

First, I don't believe it would apply if used only for defense, and it's not used excessively (excessive force), imo. I believe most types of hand/palm sticks are non-lethal.

That said, just about anything can be used to inflict "grievous bodily harm” and can be "used lethally". Hey, attack someone with a sharp pencil and stab him/her in the eye or throat, you could be looking at all sorts of serious charges, imo. Simply put, it all depends on how you use it, imo.

Do you know of any good resources, books, websites or charts showing the strike points? I've seen a few videos on youtube of kubaton demonstrations (which was pretty impressive given the small size) but probably not enough to know proper technique if ever needed to use in a self defense role.

As soon as I get a chance, I'll PM/email you. When you reply, I'll attach a couple of PDFs to you.

so the attendant circumstance rule is only for criminals?

Basically, attendant circumstance is something that may be considered when one is facing charges, I believe. If someone's being charged with assault and/or battery, attendant circumstances might come into play. But, if it's clearly self-defense and you're not the one being arrested/charged, attendant circumstances would not apply to you, imo. In other words, if you're not being arrested, I don't believe there would be any attendant circumstances where you're concerned, can't have attendant circumstances if there's no case, so to speak (in my non-lawyer opinion).

Like this

For me, yes.

More so, stuff like this:
http://www.bladehq.com/item--Stainless-Steel-Benchmade--2835
And-
http://www.elishewitzknives.com/Pens_Detail_Available_TacticalPen.asp
The end/tip on this one ain't too bad (not a sharp pointy spike), but those bevels (teeth) are a prob for me. Some pens have sharper stuff.

Check this stuff out, pens & kubos. Extreme!
http://www.americankami.com/impact.html
Nice work, though. Pretty. Just wouldn't carry them. There are some pens & kubos out there with outright spikes at the end. Big no-no, imo.

Something like this would be better, imo. Rounded ends. Practical.
http://www.countycomm.com/pen 3 large.JPG

since the glassbreaker could be used in an emergency situation like a car crash and your trapped in the car, I wonder, do you think there would be a problem keeping one of these in a car but not carrying it with you?

Well, for that use, there are much better emergency tools I'd recommend. More practical/reliable. Some nice inexpensive options out there.