Les...Please clear this up.

Well, lemme see, I have two mice, a rat, a possum, an ocasional herd of Japanese beetles, flies, palmetto bugs, thats giant flying roach bugs to you northerners, scorpions, and if I'm real lucky, a praying mantis every now and then. Oh wait this thread was about knifemakers having helpers in their shops. Never mind! :D
 
Jerry,
Why is that? I can't afford ovens and such for heat treating is like saying I can't afford grinders and such for grinding. Seriously, I just can't figure it.
Leave it to a professional? Blade grinders are professionals too.
I'm not trying to start a flame or anything, I just never understood why a knifemaker would not want to experience the ultimate in knifemaking. The Soul of the Blade....Heat treating.....
 
Mr. Ralph,

Your post left me confused.

Are you saying that "you would like a CNC" or that "you use a CNC"?:confused:

Thanks,
Michael
 
Kit, I have experienced it. I owned my own oven and liquid nitrogen dewar and treated a lot of blades until I got rid of them. The simple truth is that I can't do it as well as Paul Bos. Few people can. I guess that's why a lot of good knifemakers use his services. I'll exclude myself from the list certainly, but it includes some of the very finest.

If someone doesn't want to buy one of my knives because I don't heat treat them myself, I think that's probably a good idea. The last time I made a sheath, the customer asked me never to do that again. My shop is pretty close to primitive and I get all the ultimate experiences I need. I'm usually healing from one of them...
 
Jerry,
Again, I ain't shooting for a pissing contest. I really don't understand it. And if you couldn't grind a blade (and I know you can:) would that be the same thing? Leave it to a professsional? To me, if you are a knifemaker, you should be able to do it all.
I guess I just need to go make a drink and sit on the porch for awhile.
<----Going to sit and look at the stars with a Famous Grouse in his hand:)
 
I just poured myself a little 15 year old malt, so maybe I need to mellow out too.

Here's my final take on this, and I'll not utter another word on the subject.

If I were making a knife for me or for fun or for show, I could do the heat treating and the knife would be fine. The knives I made that I did heat treat dressed out and skinned a whole lot of deer. They were and are good knives. Most all of the knives I make these days are tactical and I make them with the expectation that someone will depend on one for defending themselves. Paul makes better steel than I do, and I want the best steel I can get in these blades. It's really that simple.

In my mind, professionalism includes accepting your limitations, and not allowing them to compromise the integrity of your product. My only interest is in the best possible knife I can produce. When my name goes on the blade, it is the very best blade I know how to create, and that includes Paul's heat treating. If I could do it as well I would. I can't. Issues of ego are irrelevant. I only care about what the customer will hold in his hand.

End of message...
 
Guys, I do see a distinction between grinding and heat treating. Personally, I view heat treatment as a scientific endeavor, whereas I view designing, shaping, and grinding of a blade more of an exercise in art and creativity. There are certainly aspects of science in grinding blades, but there's not much creativity in heat-treating steel. The heat treatment, though crucial to a blade's performance, says little about the maker's vision.

The various molecular components of steel are also important, but you buy your ATS-34 as is. It comes to you with x.xx% this and x.xx% that, and once you've ground the blade, you heat to x degrees for y minutes and so on. In both cases, you're doing little more than following a scientific formula.

Just one way of looking at it I suppose......
 
Big bold words from those that can afford the gear to heat treat the newer stainless alloys, or those that work in carbon!

If you can't afford a grinder, you make do with a belt sander or file for that matter (I did for years). If you are skilled it won't make one bit of differance. But if you can't afford the gear for heat treating you can't do it (at least not anywhere near right) with a torch. PERIOD, END OF SUBJECT.

I disclose who does my heat treating, if that makes me any less of a knife maker in your mind, you have a mighty small mind.
 
This whole debate is tired. It's been on every forum on the net for years, and before that, probably somewhere else ...

The issue being ... (and point!)

Disclosure value of "Sole Authorship" is not even relevant unless:

1) You are selling the work.

If you are selling the work, then it's the customer who counts. Making this disclosure information available at the time of sale is all you can do to fulfill your obligation to the buyer, relating to their need of it to make a purchase decision. Holding it back, or outright lying if asked is unethical, no matter what techniques you use or combination, thereof.

Like Darrel said, there are new technologies available that should be experimented with to advance the "science of knife making." Just because you can't use them, don't use them, or farm out parts of your work process that you think can be handled better elsewhere, like Jerry said, just stay focused on making knives that people like and want to own.

It seems to me that there are really two debates being confused as one here.

1) Has the Knifemaker's Guild created a problem for itself by relaxing the rules it started out with, pertaining to the conformity of applications and processes considered acceptable, from a "custom" definition by allowing members to use certain techniques and processes under their nose? That being true, is the real debate defining "custom" part of a greater "charter" definition debate going on, relating to the non-conforming actions of recent members? By the way, I know that Edmund Davidson for a fact is one of the greatest advocates today for the KMG to realign itself back to it's own original charter. The quality of his work pretty much separates him from the vast majority of KMG members, anyway.

On this point ... when's the last time the KMG ever sold a knife? Who are their customers and how do they feel? Are they backing the warranty on any of their members knives, assuming a member has one fail following the guidelines they created for "custom" production? I mean, if they are underwriting the warranties on the products being produced, then building within their guidelines should be a requirement. Otherwise, you better cover your own skin and do what you know produces the best result for "you"! If that's CNC, CAD or farming out the heat-treatment, you better do it to produce the "best" product for the customer.

2) Is there some heavy pressure being felt right now because a group of younger, high-tech oriented individual makers have emerged in the last 10 years that are re-defining the wants and needs of the buyer market, producing works that are being gobbled up by the masses, but are produced in ways that are stretching the boundaries of the term "custom" as defined by definitions of old?

It seems to me that the bottom line is to make work/art that can stand up under punishment ... but can sell, primarily. As a matter of business ethics, disclose the material and construction data used in the process and move on. But, regardless of how you make it, or by what method, stand behind it if it fails to deliver the performance you guarantee it will. That's about it ... the rest is in the eye of the beholder ... incidently, your customers!

But, don't go by what I say ... go by what the customer says. However, you better look at all your perceived definitions carefully. Times change ... sometimes while you are watching them. Don't expect the internet to stand still while you consider the points. It won't! That, I can guarantee you! :D

Alex
 
Gentlemen,

Are we pushing this issue a bit too far? When I buy a knife I am more concerned with the design, execution, and general quality of the knife, than the process by which it was manufactured. The maker’s name on the knife is my assurance that the quality of the knife is at least comparable with other knives bearing his name. As a collector, I would also be concerned about the reputation that the maker had, and is, continuing to make for his products in the marketplace. Whether, he made 100% of the knife personally, or hired 1000 flying monkeys to help him, is irrelevant. At the end of the day I will own the product and not the process.

The sole authorship concern has been misplaced. I can understand the interest that I, or any other collector would have, should a maker materially change the way they have been manufacturing their knives. We would be worried about the knife maker’s reputation, and whether the changes to his method of operation would be perceived as a real devaluation in the quality of his products. But, this does not mean that we are concerned with the process in itself.

The direction we are heading in doesn’t make any sense. We are talking about putting consumer product labels on knives. If sole authorship becomes the focus of “custom” knives then the Guild would have to launch itself into a detailed definition of what they mean by sole authorship.

1) They would have to undertake an ISO-9000 (or similar) evaluation to document all of the steps involved in the manufacture of a knife. Everything from the procurement of raw materials to the delivery of the finish good, through the support provided after the sale.

2) Each one of these steps would then need to be evaluated, and the Guild would need to determine which steps are so crucial to the finished product that they must absolutely be performed exclusively by the Guild Member.

3) This would leave many other steps in which the Guild Member would be at liberty to subcontract third parties. Since the possibilities are extensive, the Guild would have to establish some way to evaluate the amount of third party content in each knife. Some kind of point scoring system would probably be needed.

4) Which would lead to some arbitrary score, below which the knife would no longer be considered a “custom” knife.

5) Then each qualifying knife would be marked with the Guild’s seal of approval and a point score.

And, when all of this is finally completed, and I and other collectors go out and buy a knife, we would have all of these neat little stickers, which would tell us absolutely nothing about the quality of the knife we are buying. We would also have the pleasure of paying more for these knives. Not only because the process has increased the cost of manufacturing them, but also because it has developed an entirely new level of liability.
Stop the madness! Focus on the quality of the finished product, and stop worrying about the manufacturing process.

N2S
 
I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Some people like bone scales. I do. Les doesn't. No biggie.

Some people like knowing that a maker did all the work on a knife themselves. Great.

Some people don't care. No problem.

As long as the customer is given an honest answer if/when he asks, I don't see that there's any controversy. A less than honest answer would reflect poorly on the maker and the industry as a whole.

Barring that, to each their own. There's no way that all collectors/users/makers are going to become a homogenous group. (Thankfully.) Let's embrace the differences and move on.

My two cents.

Blues
 
Blues: One of the best posts I have read in days.

Thank you!
 
Originally posted by Blues
I don't see what all the fuss is about.

As long as the customer is given an honest answer if/when he asks, I don't see that there's any controversy. A less than honest answer would reflect poorly on the maker and the industry as a whole.

Blues

Blues, that will do it.

Tell the customer what you do, or farm out. If he is happy, then there is no problem.

A.T.
 
Wow - this is turning into an interesting thread and Les is not back from holiday until Sunday!?! :D

Regards,

Ed
 
Originally posted by Fire Horse

My concerns would be why a one man shop would change course & become a production house? Are they trying to fill the demands for theirs knives or are they more interested in making a lot of money?

Easy question, easy answer. Everything is about money.

I don't have a problem with makers using CNC machines or outsourced parts in their knives. Quite the opposite, have a ball, whatever floats your boat. But, should they charge the same price for these knives as they do for their truly handcrafted ones? I think not.

I buy custom knives at knife shows too, at least one at every show. I want to spend my money wisely. Did I say wisely? I don't want to spend $400 for a makers knife that is made in the same process as a Buck 110. I don't care whose name is on the blade.

Maybe a maker should have a separate and distict mark on the blades of knives made from outsourced/manufactured parts. Someway to identify them. The initial buyer will know what they are getting, and just as importantly, future owners of the knife will know too.

I am a Knifemaker. I have worked hard and long to attain that title and any recognition that I have. When you buy a knife with my name on it, you bought a knife that I made, in my shop.....period.

Al P.
 
I for one still do everything myself, even that damned bandsawing! For years I had Paul Bos heat treat my blades but this year I bought an oven and do most myself now also. I do all my own engraving and carving except for the few knives I make with Wolfgang Loerchner. I use Damasteel and Mike Norris stainless damascus. Barry Gallagher, Robert Eggerling, and a few pieces from John W. Smith carbon damascus for bolsters. I use Mostly ats34 for my blades and 416 and stainless damascus for some frames. I use 17-4ph stainless for liner-lock springs and auto leaf springs. I have 3 belt grinders, 1 drill press, 1 small jet milling maching, 1 harig surface grinder tons of drill bits and reamers belts and bar steel and lots of files. I even hand sign each blade and dont use a stencil, to me this is like Rembrandt using a stamp for his paintings. The damn bugs in my shop dont even help out! nor do my 3 cats. Maybe this is why I am so slow in my old age:p
 
C'mon Tim, admit it. You can't get anybody to stay in the shop with you because of those fumes emanating from those explosions in your nether regions :p
 
Well first let me say that I am glad to see that several well known custom knife makers, dealers and buyers participated in this conversation.

Im glad to see the issue has been resolved.
 
I agree with Gus!
Blues said it all!

QUOTE:
As long as the customer is given an honest answer if/when he
asks, I don't see that there's any controversy. A less than
honest answer would reflect poorly on the maker and the
industry as a whole.

Barring that, to each their own. There's no way that all
collectors/users/makers are going to become a homogenous
group. (Thankfully.) Let's embrace the differences and move
on.

To clear up the confusion:

As for the heat treating issue I feel that farming out one process is as good as farming out the next process. Its all the same. If your going to press one issue then press them all. There is no gray area.

I feel personally it is far beyond the SCOPE of anyone to tell folks what to do. Its rediculous and REALLY petty. But politics will be politics.
It just seems there are some important issues that are put on the back burner that need addressing long before petty issues like these need the lime light.

How about increasing the knife buying public?

Or health insurance for knifemakers through a group plan?
A coop buying group of materials.
How about educating the knifemakers with new process's?
These things are real issues that will help knifemakers.
I dont think any of these are on the agenda?

The ABS and North Carolina Knife makers guild proceed with projects in educating knifemakers. Seems like a good reason to have an organization?

The last I heard the KMG says that the knifemaker should make the knife in his shop. If parts ect. are made elsewhere it is suppose to be written on a paper of some kind. (I GUESS)
They say a maker makes his knives is up to him to decide as long as he does the work. Thats good enough for me.
This is all what ive heard as secon hand info so correct me if im wrong.

LIVE AND LET LIVE.
Make the best knife you can for the customer.
 
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