Amen! Always have a fixed blade........or two or three.
Minimalist camping without a fixed blade
- Thread starter kalan850
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Amen! Always have a fixed blade........or two or three.
That's great about the "historical gardening". Right, what's the official date? I guess everything's invasive, especially us.
No one ever terms it as I do, nor do they identify a year or even a century as the "golden era." If I had to guess, depending on the individual, it would amount to either "when my grandparents were young" or "before white settlers arrived." For some, there's anti-modern or anti-western feeling lurking not far under the surface. But that conveniently forgets that the human invasion of the Americas began when people first crossed the Bering Land Bridge, roughly 13,000 years ago or more.
What's interesting to me is to look at the cutlery carried by the early settlers from Europe: it was similar to what you see today around re-enactor sites focusing on 17th and 18th century technology. Folding pocket knives existed and were carried, but nearly everyone had a long fixed blade knife, often called a "trade" or "scalping" knife, typically with a wooden handle and a thin blade some 7 to 9 inches long. Replicas are available today, made the same way as the old timers did it. Some examples from Old Dominion Forge:
To me, that's a big clue to what one should take along when setting off for the woods.
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I've finished reading the daily diaries of Lewis and Clark. Their daily activities included shooting at just about everything and skinning and eating as much, or more than, they needed. Those kinds of knives surely were as necessary as gunpowder.
But we live in a different time. My large national forests and the national park would be disasters if the old-style high-impact camping were allowed. I've even seen the subtle signs of it in the woods many decades after those practices were disallowed.
We often have complete fire bans where even alcohol or small twig stoves are not allowed in order to prevent conflagration.
I still carry a fixed blade but in decades of backpacking have not yet "needed" it. I'm actually downsizing and lightening my fixed blade choice in recognition of this.
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If you carried a flintlock then maybe a patch knife, sharp and not very big.
Here I disagree on size. In the main they carried a small utility knife and not a very big one. If you were originally a seaman then it was small. Working with horses then small again.
Only those who required something bigger carried anything longer than 5" as it got in the way. Not many did. True, most, as shown above, were kitchen knives in style; most were kitchen knives, or butchers. Certainly no one would batton with one as they were for cutting and not thick enough nor the steel up to that kind of abuse. Generally they were pretty inexpensive and whatever they found in the shop. Only the rich could afford anything fancy.
Weapons of any type were very very expensive. Tools were expensive too and looked after.
Anyhow, there were billhooks, saws, awls, chisels and axes to work with wood. Every expedition took a carpenter and sail maker as these were specialist skills.
Some explorers were known to take hunting knives, a big knife, but these were the exception and possibly more PR than requirement.
The big Bowie, so popularised, especially during the American Civil War, weren't encountered nearly as often as the portraits would suggest. During that war many parents sent their boys off with such a blade. Within a short time they were binned on the march as they didn't have much use for them. The myth still prevails today. In a fight you had a musket with a whopping big bayonet (I'm unsure if in the American Civil War the bayonet charge was used quire the same way as in Europe??? Weapon technology has moved on since Waterloo/American War of Independence).
The "big" knife will always have a macho appeal. But what real use is very questionable. I'm a succour for them too:
Here I disagree on size. In the main they carried a small utility knife and not a very big one. If you were originally a seaman then it was small. Working with horses then small again.
Only those who required something bigger carried anything longer than 5" as it got in the way. Not many did. True, most, as shown above, were kitchen knives in style; most were kitchen knives, or butchers. Certainly no one would batton with one as they were for cutting and not thick enough nor the steel up to that kind of abuse. Generally they were pretty inexpensive and whatever they found in the shop. Only the rich could afford anything fancy.
Weapons of any type were very very expensive. Tools were expensive too and looked after.
Anyhow, there were billhooks, saws, awls, chisels and axes to work with wood. Every expedition took a carpenter and sail maker as these were specialist skills.
Some explorers were known to take hunting knives, a big knife, but these were the exception and possibly more PR than requirement.
The big Bowie, so popularised, especially during the American Civil War, weren't encountered nearly as often as the portraits would suggest. During that war many parents sent their boys off with such a blade. Within a short time they were binned on the march as they didn't have much use for them. The myth still prevails today. In a fight you had a musket with a whopping big bayonet (I'm unsure if in the American Civil War the bayonet charge was used quire the same way as in Europe??? Weapon technology has moved on since Waterloo/American War of Independence).
The "big" knife will always have a macho appeal. But what real use is very questionable. I'm a succour for them too:
Don't worry I'm not planning to scalp anyone! And my own preference is for a smaller knife and one with a thicker blade, too. And yes, Greenjacket, small patch knives were carried by most people with a muzzleloader. Here's mine (yet to be used as a patch knife):
(Coureur des bois knife, medium size, by Dean Oliver (River Traders) plus sheath by Ralph Williams (Bear Tooth Leather). Blade: 3.25)
My point, really, is that a decent fixed blade is just a wise thing to have with you when you're hiking any distance, even if it seldom or never comes out of the backpack. It's your choice as to how big, how long, how heavy. But it's just a matter of being prepared in case the hike doesn't go the way you planned.
But that's me. If someone wishes to go from one end of a long trail to another carrying only what fits on you and in a fannypack your choice. (But that won't be my approach.)
(Coureur des bois knife, medium size, by Dean Oliver (River Traders) plus sheath by Ralph Williams (Bear Tooth Leather). Blade: 3.25)
My point, really, is that a decent fixed blade is just a wise thing to have with you when you're hiking any distance, even if it seldom or never comes out of the backpack. It's your choice as to how big, how long, how heavy. But it's just a matter of being prepared in case the hike doesn't go the way you planned.
But that's me. If someone wishes to go from one end of a long trail to another carrying only what fits on you and in a fannypack your choice. (But that won't be my approach.)
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Nice knife, though I tend to think patch knives were of thinner stock as per the ODF's. In truth whatever you fancy, there aren't any rules.
Just have never got my head around fanny packs.
Pouch, bread bag or bag, as in game bag. Daysack is the minimum in my book.
Just have never got my head around fanny packs.
Pouch, bread bag or bag, as in game bag. Daysack is the minimum in my book.
The blade on the little knife is 1/16" thick, probably about what the period ones were. The broad bevel (which is on both sides) deceives the eye into thinking the steel is thicker than it is, as does the decorative jimping on the blade spine. Nice little thing full tang, too but not what I would call sufficient by itself as a deep-woods blade.
The sheath was a custom job and a gamble. Ordinarily I'd never pick anything so decorated, but somehow it seems to go with the knife and I smile every time I look at it. I'm thinking of ordering another somewhat decorated sheath for a Green River Dadley knife. For me these designs evoke the late 1700s / early 1800s and some kind of period sheath seems appropriate.
Fannypacks, bellypacks ??? Likewise a mystery to me, but lots of people seem to love them.
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I have forgotten at home, or wished that I had certain cutting tools when outdoors. Not such a big deal when car camping or close to town. But in a remote and isolated spot, I do not F around. I have been spooked a few times and prefer more at hand resources over less. I have skill and knowledge limits, so I try to work within those realistic (for me) parameters.
If you carried a flintlock then maybe a patch knife, sharp and not very big.
Here I disagree on size. In the main they carried a small utility knife and not a very big one. If you were originally a seaman then it was small. Working with horses then small again.
Only those who required something bigger carried anything longer than 5" as it got in the way. Not many did.
Some explorers were known to take hunting knives, a big knife, but these were the exception and possibly more PR than requirement.
The big Bowie, so popularised, especially during the American Civil War, weren't encountered nearly as often as the portraits would suggest.
The "big" knife will always have a macho appeal. But what real use is very questionable. I'm a succour for them too:
If what you say was true, most of the period big Bowie knives would not be English made... The very fact they bothered to import large numbers of them (IXL etc), instead of making them locally, demonstrates just how huge the demand was for them...
Also a newspaper article of the period states big bowies were absolutely everywhere, often ostensibly displayed and used constantly... Another period article related to the Bowie knife craze of the 1840s states almost every scrap of metal available was turned into a Bowie knife, such was the demand...
Given the primitive black powder unrifled guns of the early 19th century, the low reliability, power and rate of fire of guns made big knives more useful as weapons.
One period knife I saw had a 1/2" thick spine, the actual steel, not the brass spine strip: Probably a display piece, but it goes to show...
Gaston
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Britain was the industrial power house of the day, (China today) pumping out steel products. It was buying in raw materials like cotton, iron ore, you name it, and at full production of manufacturing goods to export world wide.
If you wanted knives... how many? Fancy or plain, whatever you like. We do rifles, pistols, swords, and cannon too. You name it we produce it... you can pay in cotton, raw materials or gold, heck we do credit too.
The big bowie was in fashion big time. Fashion because of the glamourous press writing about daring do. Bowie, the Alamo, but also intrepid explorers. America was being sold around Europe as the place to go. American metropolises were growing fast, so was their industry, so was their expansion across the vast continent. Gold rushes, the slave trade, and the northern industrialisation and immigration. The USA was buzzing with activity.
Firearm technology was moving at a pace, but earlier the sword was king when it came to fighting blades. Heck the wealthy or militias had firearms and pistols. There was governance, rule of law, and religious, Christian, values. So most people did not need to be permanently armed. Most people couldn't afford them being pretty poor. Anyhow they got in the way being heavy and cumbersome.
The big bowie was produced and imported in quantity for the American Cival War. They were around before but not in huge quantities. The Civil War they went huge. Few people had ever fought before as there had been a professional army and militias, and now there was conscription! Like any war people bought into anything, if they could afford to do so, that was pointy and warlike. A big fighting Bowie looked the part and far more affordable and available than an expensive and complicated pistol/revolver.
However, once a soldier the utility of a Bowie and lack of any real practicability brought some reality. Sure Southerners, the agricultural slave owning type, might have grown up with more of an outdoor individual spirit, but not your mass of Northern industrial city dwellers. The big bowie lost favour as the war progressed into full scale industrial war.
I am not saying there weren't plenty made, nor plenty about. I like them as a blade as some are very elegant and meaningful. I've also been very swathing with my comments, and of course there were exceptions. But from my studies and readings it seems the fighting bowie has been hyped up way beyond what its real use was. The same happened at the time. A lot were ditched on the long marches or swopped for food and drink. In practice they weren't as popular nor so widely carried; however they do make a good wall hanger.
I'm sure others have their views, and may well have more studious knowledge. Just given my impression. I believe the big fighting knife has some popularity in Australia too when that was being explored. The small, patch, or belt knife was the common carry.
If you wanted knives... how many? Fancy or plain, whatever you like. We do rifles, pistols, swords, and cannon too. You name it we produce it... you can pay in cotton, raw materials or gold, heck we do credit too.
The big bowie was in fashion big time. Fashion because of the glamourous press writing about daring do. Bowie, the Alamo, but also intrepid explorers. America was being sold around Europe as the place to go. American metropolises were growing fast, so was their industry, so was their expansion across the vast continent. Gold rushes, the slave trade, and the northern industrialisation and immigration. The USA was buzzing with activity.
Firearm technology was moving at a pace, but earlier the sword was king when it came to fighting blades. Heck the wealthy or militias had firearms and pistols. There was governance, rule of law, and religious, Christian, values. So most people did not need to be permanently armed. Most people couldn't afford them being pretty poor. Anyhow they got in the way being heavy and cumbersome.
The big bowie was produced and imported in quantity for the American Cival War. They were around before but not in huge quantities. The Civil War they went huge. Few people had ever fought before as there had been a professional army and militias, and now there was conscription! Like any war people bought into anything, if they could afford to do so, that was pointy and warlike. A big fighting Bowie looked the part and far more affordable and available than an expensive and complicated pistol/revolver.
However, once a soldier the utility of a Bowie and lack of any real practicability brought some reality. Sure Southerners, the agricultural slave owning type, might have grown up with more of an outdoor individual spirit, but not your mass of Northern industrial city dwellers. The big bowie lost favour as the war progressed into full scale industrial war.
I am not saying there weren't plenty made, nor plenty about. I like them as a blade as some are very elegant and meaningful. I've also been very swathing with my comments, and of course there were exceptions. But from my studies and readings it seems the fighting bowie has been hyped up way beyond what its real use was. The same happened at the time. A lot were ditched on the long marches or swopped for food and drink. In practice they weren't as popular nor so widely carried; however they do make a good wall hanger.
I'm sure others have their views, and may well have more studious knowledge. Just given my impression. I believe the big fighting knife has some popularity in Australia too when that was being explored. The small, patch, or belt knife was the common carry.
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Yes and no, GREENJACKET (or is that RGJ
- joke).
Big knives were very popular up to the War Between the States, where many were brought to the conflict and many discarded as being cumbersome, as you correctly mention.
After the War, the popularity of the big fighting Bowie declined some what.
Some places, they were outlawed, which dint help its use none.
Duels were rampant.
The art of knife fighting were so popular and wide spread in the area, that famous fencing and blade fighting masters from France and else where congregated in NO.
For more insight, I recommend reading the book: "Bowie Knife Fights, Fighters, and Fighting Techniques."
- joke).Big knives were very popular up to the War Between the States, where many were brought to the conflict and many discarded as being cumbersome, as you correctly mention.
After the War, the popularity of the big fighting Bowie declined some what.
Some places, they were outlawed, which dint help its use none.
No hype. For example at a point in time in New Orleans, the fighting knife was very popular. It was deemed a necessity for a young man to brought up with the 'virtues' of knife fighting and it was de rigueur to carry one. If you didnt have a fighting knife cross wise in a sash carry for example, you were lacking something.
Duels were rampant.
The art of knife fighting were so popular and wide spread in the area, that famous fencing and blade fighting masters from France and else where congregated in NO.
For more insight, I recommend reading the book: "Bowie Knife Fights, Fighters, and Fighting Techniques."
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RGJ, now The Rifles.
(My signature is Muskett elsewhere)
I have a small collection of "knife fighting books", but not that one.
I do realise the big Bowie has a strong connection in American Culture. New Orleans has some history all of its own! Nothing surprises me, as many cultures have "their" specialised weapon to identify with. The fighting bowie was probably brought to its pinnacle in America. Elsewhere the sword and dagger ruled until the very end when it was completely eclipsed by firearms. As was the Wild West.
Often, duelling, street fighting and even tribal encounters between villages, the aim was not to kill but to prove a point. Who wanted a blood feud? The weapons of choice were often chosen because they were less terminal and provided a chance of survival. Different for war weapons, but for resolving an argument then some rules and lower lethal means might be preferable. Duels were a risky business, regularly banned by the establishment.
One point before we go way of track. The big fighting bowie was not a woodsman tool, being lightweight and fast. Not something to chop a tree down, or baton through a log. If carried as a fighting blade then thats what it was built for, some pretty fancy too. Status, not a bushcraft tool.
People tended to travel by horse if they owned one. Walking was to get to work and back. Only the elite and wealthy went playing and doing adventurous things for fun.
(My signature is Muskett elsewhere)
I have a small collection of "knife fighting books", but not that one.
I do realise the big Bowie has a strong connection in American Culture. New Orleans has some history all of its own! Nothing surprises me, as many cultures have "their" specialised weapon to identify with. The fighting bowie was probably brought to its pinnacle in America. Elsewhere the sword and dagger ruled until the very end when it was completely eclipsed by firearms. As was the Wild West.
Often, duelling, street fighting and even tribal encounters between villages, the aim was not to kill but to prove a point. Who wanted a blood feud? The weapons of choice were often chosen because they were less terminal and provided a chance of survival. Different for war weapons, but for resolving an argument then some rules and lower lethal means might be preferable. Duels were a risky business, regularly banned by the establishment.
One point before we go way of track. The big fighting bowie was not a woodsman tool, being lightweight and fast. Not something to chop a tree down, or baton through a log. If carried as a fighting blade then thats what it was built for, some pretty fancy too. Status, not a bushcraft tool.
People tended to travel by horse if they owned one. Walking was to get to work and back. Only the elite and wealthy went playing and doing adventurous things for fun.
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I agree with some points - other points not so much.
For example duells being the latter - they were very often fatal ... as are of course common street scraps with knives to this day. Of course some places in time saw the duelling as merely a means to draw 'first blood' where upon honor was restored.
But as you say, we are fast moving OT, so lets discuss this else where. Interesting subject BTW.
Now back to our regular scheduled programming.
For example duells being the latter - they were very often fatal ... as are of course common street scraps with knives to this day. Of course some places in time saw the duelling as merely a means to draw 'first blood' where upon honor was restored.
But as you say, we are fast moving OT, so lets discuss this else where. Interesting subject BTW.
On this we do agree
Now back to our regular scheduled programming.
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Duells were all too often fatal.
It does seem that fancy "dress" as in smart, bowies were the rigour in the USA for quite some time, especially those areas with Spanish influence. How much was bravado, or necessity I'm not sure. Many people of that period, even in Europe, were regularly armed for personal defence, be that cane sword or pocket pepper pistol. Minimalist might be the muff pistols, as carried in hand warmers by ladies. Security remained a major issue.
Great subject, back on topic.
Think its been well and truly covered now.
It does seem that fancy "dress" as in smart, bowies were the rigour in the USA for quite some time, especially those areas with Spanish influence. How much was bravado, or necessity I'm not sure. Many people of that period, even in Europe, were regularly armed for personal defence, be that cane sword or pocket pepper pistol. Minimalist might be the muff pistols, as carried in hand warmers by ladies. Security remained a major issue.
Great subject, back on topic.
Think its been well and truly covered now.
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No one ever terms it as I do, nor do they identify a year or even a century as the "golden era." If I had to guess, depending on the individual, it would amount to either "when my grandparents were young" or "before white settlers arrived." For some, there's anti-modern or anti-western feeling lurking not far under the surface. But that conveniently forgets that the human invasion of the Americas began when people first crossed the Bering Land Bridge, roughly 13,000 years ago or more.
What's interesting to me is to look at the cutlery carried by the early settlers from Europe: it was similar to what you see today around re-enactor sites focusing on 17th and 18th century technology. Folding pocket knives existed and were carried, but nearly everyone had a long fixed blade knife, often called a "trade" or "scalping" knife, typically with a wooden handle and a thin blade some 7 to 9 inches long. Replicas are available today, made the same way as the old timers did it. Some examples from Old Dominion Forge:
To me, that's a big clue to what one should take along when setting off for the woods.
I have found late 1700's cutting tools, trade hatchet, folding knife, fixed blades, clasp etc. while metal detecting remote sites. I agree with a lot of your points/views. As for the natives being first in North America issue, I couldn't care much less really. My wife and I majored in Native Studies. We are also both very aware that the history of mankind is conflict and dominance, for resources. The cultures that survive are those capable of adapting. When the natives of North America realized the superiority of iron tools over stone, they adopted them into their culture. When the natives saw that their land base was being lost, they went to war over it. Nothing special here, same thing anywhere in the world. Canada made native treaties partially because it was a young and militarily weak country, compared to the older/stronger United States. We couldn't afford to send huge armies out for confrontation/relocation by force. So we did it politically. The decimation of the western tribes primary food source, the buffalo, significantly weakened the bands up here, along with their lack of immunity to European diseases. Not to mention the introduction of alcohol back in the 1700's.The treaties up here were with weakened tribes. People tend to romanticize the natives here, but their experience is pretty much analogous to what happened in the rest of the world for tens of thousands of years.
For anyone interested in the cutlery (knives of all kinds, plus hatchets, cleavers, axes) of the early colonial period through about 1840, I can recommend Carl Russell's Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men. Don't be put off by the 1967 publication date or the lack of "knife" in the title, it has loads of line drawings of the knives used by these early "hikers" and "minimalist campers." Russell spent 30+ years as an iron-artifact historical archaeologist for the National Park Service.
Anyone who has followed this thread through 32 thick-and-thin pages of.... animated discussion, let's say...will enjoy the book's historical lights on the topics thrashed out here.
Anyone who has followed this thread through 32 thick-and-thin pages of.... animated discussion, let's say...will enjoy the book's historical lights on the topics thrashed out here.
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Well I tried "minimalist chopping" with the top folder pictured below: At 11 ounces these Al Mars have considerable heft that would be a wasted feature without a bit of hacking at light branches, or even chopping at an angle for making basic tent pegs...:
Note the deceleration impact from chopping was considerably reduced by the fact the whole grind was zero-edged to about 6-8 degrees per side... It really made a difference in shock... The chopping performance was actually quite good (for a folder) since it combined the thinner edge with the weight of 11 ounces: The edge survived intact (surprising for a zero edge, and illustrating the excellent quality of the Seki City's Aus-6) but the knife's pins and foundations were unable to take the modest impact loads... I did not hack as hard as I could, just spun the knife loosely by the flared end of the handle...
The lockbar's center pivot pin deformed, leading to a changed lock position:
Note how the Zero Edge took it in stride, while the whole knife crumbled... The red logo knife below it is a 10 degree bevel... From the factory these things are just dull, yet even with so much thinning the zero edge still survived chopping... The bottom knife will be limited to slicing tasks from now on...
It could well be a more modern folder with a proper steel stop pin would hold up better, but today's folders tend to be well under 11 ounces, and would not be much good at hacking anything...
Gaston
Note the deceleration impact from chopping was considerably reduced by the fact the whole grind was zero-edged to about 6-8 degrees per side... It really made a difference in shock... The chopping performance was actually quite good (for a folder) since it combined the thinner edge with the weight of 11 ounces: The edge survived intact (surprising for a zero edge, and illustrating the excellent quality of the Seki City's Aus-6) but the knife's pins and foundations were unable to take the modest impact loads... I did not hack as hard as I could, just spun the knife loosely by the flared end of the handle...
The lockbar's center pivot pin deformed, leading to a changed lock position:
Note how the Zero Edge took it in stride, while the whole knife crumbled... The red logo knife below it is a 10 degree bevel... From the factory these things are just dull, yet even with so much thinning the zero edge still survived chopping... The bottom knife will be limited to slicing tasks from now on...
It could well be a more modern folder with a proper steel stop pin would hold up better, but today's folders tend to be well under 11 ounces, and would not be much good at hacking anything...
Gaston