My pet peeve, Science is everything

Turn it around and it makes more sense... everything is science. Even art. You said it yourself... studying the history of art and actually practicing it are important. Sounds like science to me.
 
Just be careful of someone who has blind faith, for they need no proof.


-X

Exactly!

It's the blind faith in science I have a problem with.

Quote from the bottom link:

"[Premise] Science is the greatest authority on human knowledge.
[Conclusion] If science says that consciousness does not exist, non-scientists should simply accept it."

One from the top link:

"It cannot be scientifically proven that science is the only means by which the truth is attainable, and therefore the view is, in a sense, self-destructive."
 
Blind faith in science, metalurgy, food, religeon or anything generally doesn't promote further learning. It's ok to ask questions.


-Xander
 
... Isn't it about time we put science itself through the same kind of scrutiny that it puts on everything else?...

I think "scientism" is bluffing!

"It cannot be scientifically proven that science is the only means by which the truth is attainable, and therefore the view is, in a sense, self-destructive."

Let's put science under the microscope... Lets' learn more about it.

Read the links.
 
An expulsion of hot air (or pixels, whatever) entitled "Knives as a Microcosm of Life, or Life as a Metaphor for Knives."

Art is not a bad word. It doesn't need to exist apart from science, either. To me it just connotes something brought into existence with the intention of being aesthetically pleasing or at least stimulating. A thing can be very practical or useful and be artistic, or may indeed be stimulating by its sublime pointlessness.

This debate is as wide as the range of people who take part in it. Some people seem to do fine with science, atheism, find joy in the light of pure reason. Others apparently do better with a spiritual outlook on life, be it organized religion or a personal agnosticism. I lean more toward the former, but enjoy the romantic past, meaning, and symbology that surrounds blacksmithing and that's one of the things that makes this craft continually inspiring and right for me.

People in general like forms that please their eyes, be it the symmetry of an attractive face, the flared fenders on a car design, or the BOLD and ZESTY lettering on a slickly packaged product at the store. Art and aesthetics so permeate life everywhere that it's difficult to imagine where, if ever they end. Spartan design concepts in architecture or industry are but another aesthetic, a subjective appeal on some level to those who may buy or use it. Even the most purely functional objects will have some concession to visual appeal, rounded corners, a uniform finish, casting seams ground flush.

A blade could have the most metallurgically sound blade for the projected use, have superior geometry, even be uniformly finished for corrosion resistance, but if it's ugly to a person that person won't buy it. Or, that blade could be mounted with a stainless steel guard, which on the face has a scratch. That scratch won't hurt a THING as far a use or durability, yet even the most aesthetically apathetic person will reject it in favor of the same knife without a scratch.

Visual appeal may range to the opposite extreme- a knife may be made and embellished with extreme value on beauty, yet still be metallurgically sound. The beauty achieved will be subjective- not everyone will care for it. But this hypothetical detractor, if a person who knows knives and their use, after testing it side by side with a knife that looks great to them but has a pot metal blade, will take the knife that while not personally appealing will cut through rope repeatedly.

A long and tortuous way of saying that art and functionality are inextricably intertwined, and nowhere more than in the field of knives. That's why they are so challenging and rewarding to try to make well.

Jeez people, life would be joyless and not worth living without art, music, literature. And without technology we'd possibly be extinct. Figure it out...
 
I don't think anyone is saying makers should only focus on the science of Metallurgy (Which is actually what Metallurgy is). The best makers "Tweak" the science to create Functional works of art. Look through history and some of the biggest tragedies were based on faith in the mystical not science. In then end you believe in what you like, and that is your right.

I Will Add: If you take a piece of purpose built steel and follow "The Science" of Metallurgy you will end up with a Hardened functional tool (Maybe Ugly). If you ignore the science chances are slim...
 
From the second link:

"He is particularly offended by the view that instructional science is the most advanced form of science; because, for Schumacher, it is the study of the low hanging fruit of inanimate matter, or less metaphorically the study of the lowest and least complex level of being."
 
-"The view that instructional science is the most advanced form of science."

I think it will always be that way, majority consensus will never agree upon a science the subject of which is the intangible.

The quote in its entirety is a good viewpoint, seems correct to me.
 
Science is often just the means of studying and learning more about something we already knew.
For example, Isaac Newton didn't discover gravity, he simply studied and wrote about something that already existed and was an accepted fact.

Obviously this isn't always the case, scientific study can occasionally discover something new and unexpected, generally in fields that cannot be perceived by humans without technological assistance. Likewise, many aspects to life cannot really be explained through science. Yes, they can generally be defined, terms can be created as needed to do so, but defined and explained are not the same thing and science is nothing if not picky about terminology.

Think of all the work done in studying psychology and sociology, much of it funded by groups who's motivation was to learn how to increase sales or better manipulate people. Essentially, the science is attempting to figure out and quantify things that skilled leaders and other charismatic individuals have known or done instinctively throughout history.
 
Anything can be hyped,... and science is not exempt.

The hyping of science can be just as detrimental as anything else...

I’m not against science. I love good science… I’m just tired of all the hype... and scientism.

I'm calling the bluff, right here right now.
 
Anything can be hyped,... and science is not exempt.

The hyping of science can be just as detrimental as anything else...

I’m not against science. I love good science… I’m just tired of all the hype... and scientism.

I'm calling the bluff, right here right now.

Tai if you are calling someones Bluff, lets hear who you are saying "Hyped" Science. Or specific examples of "Bad Science" I ask because I want to know.
 
Bad science is when it claims to know anything about or have any authority over things which are outside of it's realm.

I think the people who hype science are the usually the ones who have nothing else to hype... and most of that hype is unsubstantiated, just a bunch of talk and vague theory.
 
I trust science over religion and ancient text simply because it can change, grow and evolve. The more we learn the deeper science becomes. In recent years we found planets outside our solar system and decoded the human genome, incredible developments and and we have a lot more to learn.

It's funny to have this conversation on computers over the internet. Tens of thousands of scientific principles must work in unison to transit my Ideas from my mind to world wide web. Your flat computer screen should be confirmation enough that science works.
 
I trust science over religion and ancient text simply because it can change, grow and evolve. The more we learn the deeper science becomes. In recent years we found planets outside our solar system and decoded the human genome, incredible developments and and we have a lot more to learn.

It's funny to have this conversation on computers over the internet. Tens of thousands of scientific principles must work in unison to transit my Ideas from my mind to world wide web. Your flat computer screen should be confirmation enough that science works.

Yes ,it does work within it's realm, which is limited.

I don't have a problem with nerds. I like nerds. I'm a nerd... a knife nerd and just a plain old nerd. All my heros are nerds in one way or another. :)

I'm really not a religious person. Ask anyone who knows me well. However, I do believe that religions can learn, evolve and grow. I think history proves that.
 
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Re: that science is the *only* way to arrive at the "truth" -

You can 'arrive' many ways, but science is the best means (and in certain specific ways the only way) to determine what is true. You can guess or make a 'faith-based' argument or test and observe...each of these may give you something you perceive as valuable. Science is important in that it shows what is reproducibly and demonstrably true.

Mark
 
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