Native question - Need help.

Sal Glesser

Sal Glesser

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We have a question that has come up (& a 2nd Q that is connected). I believe that the forumites would be a good source of advice.

The Lite weight Native (Made in the Golden facility) is scheduled to undergo a steel change in Y2k from Gin-1 to CPM-440V.

Unfortunately the 440V will require a price increase which amounts to about $10 at the MRSP level.

Concern has been expressed that the increase in MRSP would negatively affect sales. Also that the general ELU would not notice or be interested in the steel difference, but might balk at the price, when compared to other lite weights on the market.

I recongnize that the forumites are not general ELU but more of the "aficianado" classification. But I also believe that you have the ability to realistically analyze the issue.

The only solution that I could come up with that would test the issue was to produce both versions. Maybe use a dark blue for the 440V version? Also had the thought that as long as we're testing, add a black coating variation? This also adds a SKU problem by double or triple.

What do you think?

sal
 
Hi Sal, I think that you are correct in your assumption that most end users will not grasp the difference between GIN-1 and 440V. That
truly does not matter to a great many consumers of production knives, and is more a
province of, as you put it, the aficionado or
"knifeknut".Among those that do know the difference, the 440V Native will be very popular, and the extra ten-spot will not matter.The idea of producing both the original and the improved model is a good one, if you can deal with the extra headaches
that might cause you. I love the notion of a
black coated blade too. Would that be a
Black -T finish? I would certainly want that
knife. My Native see's a lot of use and is very easy to carry, and "feels good" in the
hand. I like the size of the blade and the
choil helps for delicate work.My experience with your 440V in my Military and Starmate
are reason enough to want the same in the Native. Keep up the good work!

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"How do I stop this thing?"
 
Sal
I just got my BF Native so I don't have a lot of time trying it out yet. But I have to say that this is the sharpest knife I have seen in a LONG time. Especially from the factory. If the edge holds up as it should, 440 should sell like hotcakes to those in the know. Production of both blades, if you can, may be a way to get the "Price Point" shopper to try Spyderco. Black blaeds don't do anything for me unless the coating is for utility not looks. Either way I would probibly get another Native with the 440V blade.

Dwight

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This post is a natural product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

 
Sal,

I like the idea of the 440v with a dark blue handle (and just about any addition with color other than black.
smile.gif
) You can always produce it while still producing the Gin1, black lightweight and see how the sales go with either and make a decision whether to keep one or the other, or both.

Frankly I think the original is a great buy and would pay more than I did for it. So a 440v blade would be a bonus.

Since we are talking about Natives, how about the Chief...
wink.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356

PS. Oh, the black blade coating does nothing for me and the blade since it's already stainless. The native can be "tactical" but it does NOT have to look it. Plus,the native (plain edge) goes through the airport with me without a problem. I like to keep it that way.

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 16 October 1999).]

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 16 October 1999).]
 
Sal,

I would gladly pay the extra $10 MRSP level for the 440V!! The blue color would be a nice touch since I am really tired of black anything....LOL. Maroon would be chick, too
smile.gif
No blade coatings for me - when it wears off it looks wicked UGLY! Standard finish is OK, and with black hardware please
smile.gif
.

Ray 'md2020'

 
I say put out the lightweight with the superior steel, even tho the average ELU may not be aware of the difference up front, the price point ensures that some will almost be forced into noticing, which will help broaden the base of ELUs. They will coment to others you're trying to reach about how sharp/edge retention etc.
 
Unless you're using a non-stainless steel, I don't see the advantage of a blade coating.

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Sal,
I say discontinue the Gin-1 and offer only the 440V. No one offers 440V at that price point. And at $10 you would only moderately increase price. When I think of what your competition offers for that market, I know my first choice in a lightweight would be a 440V native. Plus you would be the only company exposing the masses to 440V! When they become hooked they may be more likely to try your other offerings in that steel, which no one else offers.

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Al


 
As far as 440v versus gin-1, I would think your dealers could better answer this question. I don't doubt that most forumites would spring for the extra $10. It would be a non issue. I have watched people at knife stores and most buy on price, at least at the Remington store at the mall.

As far as coating goes I guess I don't understand the need for coatings. They don't hold up well and what function do they serve? I can see them on a blade made of carbon tool steel like M2 where they offer corrosion protection. On stainless it seems redundant. Forumites educate me on this. I can see they might be a plus for stealth but that also means they would be apt to be perceived as weapons rather than tools.
 
Sal,
You can count me in for any color Native with 440V. The guys I work with are split about 50/50 when it comes to paying extra for better steel. I think that producing both blade steels is a great idea. Let the sales figures speak for themselves.


[This message has been edited by Dalerich (edited 16 October 1999).]
 
Dark Blue sounds great Sal... so does the 440V !!!!

I'll gladly spot you a 10 for that!

hmmm.... what about a blue & silver "swirl" pattern?... oops, thinking out loud again.
wink.gif
 
I'd go for the extra $10 but I doubt if many of the guys I work with would. Most of them don't know the diference between 440V and AUS 8. The 440V would also be harder to sharpen.

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Frank
jqsurf@worldnet.att.net

 
Steel- I think that at the current price the Native is a great buy for the ELU. An increase of $10 MSRP (which would probably be around $7 after discounting), along with a much better steel(440V), would still be a great deal.

Handle- As far as handle colors go, ANY color other than black would be a nice addition. Myself and a lot of others are growing very tired of every production knife, by every manufacturer, being all black.

Coating- Not needed and unless you can come up with a coating that does not wear off with normal use, it will make the knife look like s**t after a very brief period.

Clip- While I am ranting, I will also say that the clip should definitely be Black (currently, a clip from another Spydie will work, but not to perfection). These days, you don't want to broadcast from 20 feet away that you have a knife in your pocket.

And as far as keeping the Gin-1 style also. You might lose a few sales from people who are not informed and just want a sturdy inexpensive knife, but in the long run an extra couple of bucks is no big deal especially when you get so much more knife for your money. People will eventually realize this.

Well, that's my .02, maybe even a nickel's worth.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "


[This message has been edited by Jailhack (edited 16 October 1999).]
 
Hmm, okay, I'm going against the grain here, but consider that the target customer for this knife is not us "knifeknuts", but rather, someone who doesn't have a three-figure line item on their monthly budget for new cutlery. It may be someone who has never owned a knife before. They may still be uneasy with the idea that they're spending more than the cost of a night at the movies on this item...

I remember when I brought home my first Goddard Jr., years ago; it was my third or fourth knife, the most expensive to date, and I let slip that it was over $100. My girlfriend at the time didn't let me hear the end of it for a couple days, repeatedly exclaiming, "you spent $100 on a knife?". (She wasn't angry, mind you, our bank accounts were completely separate, but she was rather astonished).

Sorry to ramble, but I can imagine that many potential knife buyers face similar concerns, either in terms of what they can afford monetarily, or what they can afford politically at home.

The zytel Native is a good solid knife with great ergonomics, and a low price; I've seen them advertised in the past in the $40-$50 range. At that price, a $10 increase is as much as 25% -- far different from a $10 increase on, say, a Sebenza. And for someone buying their first knife, they're unlikely to appreciate the value of the different steel... at least not 25% worth.

Remember, if cost and acceptance wasn't an issue, they'd be buying the Starmate sitting next to the Native in the display case; maybe you should save the 440V for more upscale pieces...

So, my $0.02 on your original questions:
  • Upgrading the steel is laudable, how 'bout something less pricey than 440V, like maybe ATS-55?
  • Handle colors are a Very Good Idea -- they'll attract first-time buyers intimidated by black, as well as knifeknuts burned out on basic black (ask me about my Pink Cricket). Dark colors (blue, green, purple, burgandy) should help attract new customers without driving off too many knifeknuts who might be overly fond of black. And I'm guessing that mixing up a vat of burgundy zytel doesn't cost much more than a vat of black zytel. If you can handle the SKU's, do a black and a (some dark color), if not, then just the (some dark color).
  • As far as black blades go, I've got a collection of black-bladed Benchmades that I've used and enjoyed, but I think that Spyderco has given me a much stronger appreciation lately for uncoated blades; I think my Starmate, for example, would look funny with a black blade... so maybe skip the blade coatings for now; use them sometime when they make particular sense for the intended application or the knife's design/appearance.

Hope this makes at least some sense,
-- Carl
 
As most knifenuts here, I'd love any new item that Spyderco decides to put out. But looking at the basics of business, I think regular users only see the words "stainless" and judge it the same by look and initial feel. However, the black coating might be a different story. It presents itself as visually different product and might capture a different audience so there might be some validity in offering that. Have you thought about just offering the GIN-1 with a different coloured handle? Personally, I'd buy the 440V Native cause it's such a good knife already and moving it to 440V would be a big step (seen from a knifenut's perspective). Hard decision, isn't it?

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ET

 
I've really enjoyed my Natives.I have two lite weights,one serrated and one plain edge.Also I have the BF Native plain edge in 440v.I really like the 440v much better than the Gin 1.I can get a little finer edge on the Gin 1, but the 440v keeps on going long after the Gin 1 is in need of sharpening.It's kinda like the difference between a Straight razor and a saw.I have two Starmates,the plain edged version I carry all the time with the Calyspo liteweight or one of the Natives in my waist line to use on more delicate task.

 
Personally, I' d like a 440V with dark blue scales. My 440V BF Native outcuts the LW model by a quantum leap (nice adverb!). Yes, anything but black. Also it is somewhat expendable, certainly not as costly as the BF edition.

It has been said already that the $10 is not an issue with most of us here. But the scale color and blade coating would be a determining factor for the "non knife" person. This would be most applicable to the stocking store front business. A blue scale would stand out more among the rest of the Spydies where black is the dominant color. Now you' ve got the potential buyers attention. Show them to the "potential" and explain the differences in blade steel and performance. Shave some hair off your arm with the 440. Now potential is impressed. Sure, some of the others can do the same but the visual effect with the 440 is what did it. The coating may make it special to some but they may or may not bite if there is a great $ difference. May go either way. IME, most "potentials" who decide to buy, carry often- use them seldom. If you are a dealer, bottom line is to make $. And hopefully the knifes potential use is realized. I don' t know if I' ve answered Sals question though.

L8r,
Nakano

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"To earn a million is easy, a real friend is not."
 
Also I would like to have another Native in 440v and Dark blue would be nice, but black would be OK also.I've had a Boye Cobalt that I bought from Ironstone last year when I was feeling like trying something new.The 440v feels like it takes an edge very much like the cobalt steel in my Boye folder.I think 10 bucks is a smail amount to pay for this type of knife.It still would be priced quite a bit under the Starmate Or Military, making it a good deal for a 440v type knife.
 
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