On a practical level why should we care what the military uses?

You had to be there to experience the experience.
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Perhaps with your help we can change this. There has been remarkably little written, or documented, about how or even whether, knives are actually used by the military. There is a vast catalog of information on the knives, plenty of information on various fighting techniques, and even a few assorted stories on sentry removal, and other desperate close up struggles. But, outside of a few vague remarks there is very little about the more mundane duties which seem to account for 99.99% of actual knife use, and perhaps the same percentage of actual knife failures.

n2s
 
Spark, I didn't say "carry" spare knives, I said "bring" spare knives. It would be wise to get them as far "forward" as you can and still have control of them, but I agree, no need to carry spares all day long. It was the "trans" company in my battalion that was supposed to get you guys moved anyway. You were probably less than 50% mobile at the best!

Logistics Motto: "Keep the best, issue the rest" (or why sleep in a ragged sleeping bag when you can issue it to a grunt and keep the new one!)

Bruce Woodbury
 
Actually, there's been quite a bit written about edged weapon use over the course of the centuries. And the material is available. You just need to study and learn:)

First, don't confine yourself to "here and now" track. Broaden your horizons and seek out those Works written on various conflicts and wars to include European and religious. Jim Keating has an incredible library spanning wars, schools, teachings, and so on regarding the use and application of bladeware, for example. He had to search these out, but his knowledge base and understanding grew with each book he obtained and read. Follow Jim's example. Forums in cyber world are interesting but temporary. Study and learn. That takes WORK.

You would find the WW2 Pacific campaign helpful. Hand to hand during that campaign against the Japanese was constant. Bladeware of every catagory came into play. It was so commonplace it became commonplace. However, the various truly good personal accounts of battles fought will offer nuggets of gold on this subject. Korea offers the same, and so on.

In Fighting Knives we published a number of stories from folks to include Vietnam spec-ops vets on bladework and training. Again, nuggets of gold. Andy Prisco's company, American Tomahawk, is based on the real world accomplishments of Peter LaGana, combat veteran and designer / maker of the VN Tomahawk...which was so designed specifically for use in Vietnam and many servicemen bought and carried his 'hawks for self defense. We still do today, thanks to Andy!

Paladin Press offers a number of good books and videos on bladework. Their authors and producers provide information on film and in print that they've learned from the masters, and / or developed from their own experiences, training, education, and sharing with others. These are modern day bladesmen whose feet are rooted in the work and experiences of Bladesmen Past...study and learn from them.

It's all out there and in impressive amounts. You just need to get creative and embrace the search.
 
Originally posted by Sierra912
You would find the WW2 Pacific campaign helpful. Hand to hand during that campaign against the Japanese was constant. Bladeware of every catagory came into play. It was so commonplace it became commonplace. However, the various truly good personal accounts of battles fought will offer nuggets of gold on this subject. Korea offers the same, and so on.
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Good advice...any suggestions for in-print, easily available works that would cover some of this? Thanks.
 
This is my experience with MOST military equipment.

This comes from 4 years as a Navy Corpsman stationed with the Marines - (yes I carried a K-Bar,) and an additional 13 years as redleg in the Guard and on active duty - M-16 bayonet anyone?

OTOH, I understand certain units are "allowed to procure" to meet needs.
 
I have a fairly well stocked military library, and there are a number of accounts of combat with edge weapons. What would be interesting is some information on how knives are used the majority of the time, that is as combat knives (tools). What do the knives do in the services when they are not being used to dispatch an unfortunate sentry. How do they do it, what tecniques are used, do they perform well, and can they survive the elements, what is their life expectancy?

This is the information that is most relevant for everyday use. Was the MKII good for about 6 months, were they treated or protected in any special way, or did they just rot away in the tropics within days.

It seems at times that virtually every tactical knife we come across has an unofficial endorsement from some military someplace. Well I'll accept that, but, want to know what you did with the knife. Did it stay in the sheath 99.99% of the time only to come out for a cleaning every so often, or was it in your hands all the time, and used regularly to skin battle tanks?

n2s
 
It's a shame you apparently don't have 7 years of Fighting Knives magazines on hand:(

'Cause your inquiry is something the magazine took great pains to address during that period:)

And I've seen a number of posts in this forum and others that likewise discuss combat, fighting, killing, utility, fighting-utility, battle, close quarters fighting knives and so on in fairly good detail.

So, the info is out there and has been for some time. You could also, if you haven't already, obtain a copy of "Battle Blades" by Greg Walker from Paladin Press. The text offers a concise definition of combat, fighting, utility knives and discusses, in specific, military bladeware, uses, applications, and training. "Training of a Knife Fighter" by the same author (moi:D ) is helpful companion to the first book.
 
I didn't realize what forum I was in (I got there from a search) and I'm still trying to learn how all this works.

Believe it or not, with all that time in the military (and 12+ on active duty) I was lucky enough to be stationed some where else every time we had a "conflict."

In Okinawa and the PI in the 70's the K-Bar was used as a pry/dig/"chop" tool. They would take an edge... In my experience, anyone that needed to cut something usually used a personal blade - most often a folder.

The ONLY time (other than playing with it trying to sharpen it) that I used a bayonet, it was on the M-16 with the scabbard
taped on as a blunt weapon for crowd control...

I may be WAY off base here, but I think that it's only a very small percentage of our military that have ever (well except trenches in WW I, and then, if I remember correctly , e-tools were a fave.)used a knife for... interpersonal relations.

How's that for a PC euphamism?
 
mwelch8404,

Your experience reflects my understanding of military knife usuage.

Perhaps it just works out exactly as we are use to seeing it in the outside world. Those who love knives find excuses to use them while most of the population is just as happy to do something else.

n2s
 
Spark put most of the military points down earlier. My experience is that the military doesn't put a lot of thought towards knives; they are just not very important. A SAK or Leatherman, a folder and a robust utility covers it; anything more is issued.

Low pay makes high end knives out of reach for nearly all.
Anything too heavy would be left in a locker; you have enough to carry.
When a knife breaks thats tough, and you beg and borrow until you can PX another. It would be an exception for your life to depend on your knife, rather its the efficiency of your unit that will get you through.
Knives are just carried a whole lot of the time and rarely used. When they are, they get hard bludgeoned use and more akin to use on a building site than out hunting.
Improvised weapons account for less than 1% of battle casualties and knives a fraction of that (even then half are to self inflicted injuries).

Ka Bar's, Cold Steel and the alike are cheap, replacable and fairly robust. Thats adiquate. Hell, issued bayonets, which I've yet to find a really useful good one, probably cost the tax payer more than a Chris Reeve. Military recommendations should be taken with a huge pinch of salt for the military breaths bull **** (thankfully, there are the odd ones who can switch it off when needed).

How many people have an opinion on how good a Ferrari is to drive? How many have driven one long enough to know?
 
The Marines serving in the 'Stan were all issued MOLLE packs. The best backpack in the world; it can carry everything and carry it comfortably. In training. In combat conditions they fell apart like wet toilet paper. In training one not only has the luxury of babying one's gear, one MUST baby one's gear. It needs to survive repeated training. Combat/real life situations do not allow for that.

How does this apply to knives? It means I don't care if SEALS have Sog's Seal 2000 knife. What matters is how they use them and if (and how) they fail. We hear plenty about what the military BUYS. We hear jack about what actually WORKS.
 
N2S,
I think you overestimate the logistics of the American military.
Some things are "mission essential" (like fuel, tires, medicine) and some things are "sensitive items" (like crypto-comms, weapons, ect). These things are very quickly replaced or repaired.
But if it aint essential or sensitive (and if you're not high enough on the totem pole), don't count on a speedy replacement or repair.

Once at Ft. Lewis, someone stole the doors off my hummer.
Supply's answer "Parts are on order, wear your rain gear, move out troop"!
My NCOIC's answer "I'm not spending 30 days in Yakima in November without doors on my hummer! Get the doors"!
Well...after a little "midnight-parts-requisitioning" I had my doors!

The lesson here is that scrounging is alive and well in the military.
I've traded all sorts of things: booze, batteries, chemlights, MREs, radios, TA-50, commo-wire, concertina wire, flame detector switches for heaters in PCs and tanks, toilet paper, cigarettes, and even knives too.

Allen.
 
But if it aint essential or sensitive (and if you're not high enough on the totem pole), don't count on a speedy replacement or repair.
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Allen,

Does that mean that knives tend to be non-sensitive, and non-essential?

There are two very distinct lines of thoughs running through this discussion. On the one hand we hear from some that the knife is an absolutely essential tool, that your life may depend on your knife, and that it is absolutely critical that you obtain a tool which is over engineered for reliability, and even then you should carry a spare knife or two. But, it also sounds as though the military establishment, inexplicably, has little appreciation for the utility of knives.

I can understand a disconnect between administrative and field commands based technical innovation, perhaps even on local terrain conditions, but the disparity I am reading here is hard to understand. Presumably, at least some of the high echelon personnel, spent some time in the field, and the knife would have been as essential to them during that experience as it would be to the front line troops at the present time. How can two groups of people who have "been there" look at the same conditions and percieve them so differently.

Perhaps the more experienced troops carried a knife in the field until they discovered how truely unessential it really was.

n2s
 
not2sharp,
There are seventeen in support to every one in the front line (or there abouts). For most the most important blade is one to keep your toe nails trim as its your feet that get the hammering. When training on training areas you can't cut vegitation as otherwise within a year or two there wouldn't be any. On active service so much is broken to hell already, and its manouevre warfare so you don't stay long enough in one place to make much of a home. Everything tends to be shipped in anyway. We haven't had a WW for a while, and yes by the time someone is promoted into procurement they have forgotten what its like, and all the modern stuff looks better than they had (to add insult to injury the accountants and politicians put their spanner in).

Lets just say for arguements sake: an assault rifle is designed to last 10,000 rounds. An infantryman would have to survive several years in the front line to fire that amount of rounds through his rifle to wear it out.
 
It sounds like the majority of the army uses their knives like this:
 

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N2S, Personally I consider a knife essential for every Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, and Coastie.
However, the military really does'nt care what I think.
Bayonets are a controlled item: you check them out from the arms-room and you have to return them after the deployment or exercise. This is because they are considered a part of your rifle-system (just like magazines, night-sights, ect).

As hard as it is to believe, all other knives are considered non-mission-essential and non-sensitive. If you lose your knife then you have to buy another one (either by the dreaded "Statement of Charges" or on the local economy. And sometimes the Statement of Charges is cheaper).

US Cav, right across from Ft. Campbell makes a fortune on Soldiers who have to replace lost or stolen gear.

I had a tool-kit with lineman's pliers and an electrician's folder...I lost (and bought) that knife at least three times in the six years I served.
We would do an inventory lay-out, the knife would be missing, so I had to replace it because I was signed for every tool in the kit. This is one reason that Soldiers are so extremely reluctant to loan someone any gear or tools.
If someone wanted to use my tools, and they were'nt a very good friend, I would tell them to go to the tool-room and sign-out the tool they needed.
Sad, but true.
Maybe things have changed.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Allen,

Thanks for providing some insight. No matter how much I sort through much of what is in print it is always hard to appreciate those many small processes that make life in any large organization such a pleasure.

n2s
 
allenC is quite right about signing for everything.

All my first issue kit went into a kit bag including my KFS after recruits/bootcamp. For major inspections and when I finally handed in my kit for the last time I just emptied out the bag and it was all there. The kit I used and exchanged, when broken, I bought and aquired over time. Military surplus is recyled very efficiently when you have been in for a while and have the right connections ;) Huge amounts are written off when there is still some life in them. Anyone want a Hummer door; it doesn't fit our Land Rovers :D

A story goes: during Kosovo there a SAS OP which was compromised when a rather big tank parked itself outside the back door of the building the OP was hidden in. Not wanting to upset the new neighbours the sabre left in a bit of a hurry leaving all their night vision kit behind. The kit was written off. Several months later, when things had quietened down, one of the boys went back and found all the kit where they had left it. All the paperwork had been done so no one was very interested in the stuff being found. I believe there is a Stalker in Scotland with some of the most advanced surveillance equipment in the world. PS: its not me and wasn't me.
 
When one reads through truly solid books on CQB or survival skills as written by military authors (such as Ron Reid-Daly, Founding Commander of the Selous Scouts, whose book "Staying Alive" is one of the best on outdoor / wilderness survival skills) you discover the most common description of a field knife is "stout" and "simple".

Most stout and simple fixed blades as advocated by military experts in SERE related thought processes are to be had for less than $150.00.

Tactical folders are, for the most part, personal purchases and therefore driven by $$ available and personal whim or desire.

Multi-tools are practical, popular, and reasonably priced to include being available in the PX system.

Troops who choose to carry more expensive knives do so based on their personal desire for better equipment, based upon any number of factors, some relevant and some less so.

If the military connection doesn't float your boat when it comes to its input, then pass on it and make your own choices based on whatever other information sources are more congruent with your sense of well being in this area.

'Nuff said.
 
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