Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

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Feb 3, 2006
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Fellas,
I've seen some very nice stock removal blades lately, and although my passion lies with the fixed, forged blade, I was thinking about purchasing a fixed blade, stock removal (stainless steel) custom. So, my question is, those that have experience with both, what are the pros and cons regarding performance of stainless steel (i.e edge holding, sharpness, ease of sharpening, maintenance etc).
Bob
 
If I were looking for a stainless high-performance big fixed blade, my first call would be to R.J. Martin. I got to put one of his Pathfinder models (part of Les' Vanguard series) through a whole bunch of cutting competition tests and walked away extremely impressed. I'd be pleased and proud to own such a piece.

Roger
 
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A knife made by stock removal will, all other factors being equal, perform no better or worse than a forged knife. Knives can be forged out of stainless steel, although this is rare.

The edge holding ability, east of sharpening, wear resistance, toughness, etc. of stainless steel depends on the specific type of steel and how it has been heat treated.
 
Bob,
Aside from corrosion resistance, the most pronounced differences I've
noticed are that the better forged steels usually take a sharper,
edge, sharpen more easily, and return much sharper after palm stropping.
The latter is a major consideration in the field.
 
Bob,
Aside from corrosion resistance, the most pronounced differences I've
noticed are that the better forged steels usually take a sharper,
edge, sharpen more easily, and return much sharper after palm stropping.
The latter is a major consideration in the field.

you don't have to be very brave to second russ' opinion, nevertheless i think he is absolutely right. a lot of stainless steels (especially the ones that hold an edege for a long time like the sx0v steels) are a real pain to sharpen (in the field), and, compared to a fine grained simple carbon steel like 10xx, W2 or O1, the initial sharpness of a ss blade is rather poor. there may be good reasons to choose ss, but when sharpness and ease of sharpening is an issue: say no to ss!

best regards,
hans
 
"
The edge holding ability, east of sharpening, wear resistance, toughness, etc. of stainless steel depends on the specific type of steel and how it has been heat treated."

The same statement holds true for carbon steel. I make knives out of carbon and stainless steels, both forged and stock removal. I have also used both for many years under some conditions that, looking back, I wonder how any knife could have survived. I like them all. If the maker knows what he is doing, both will make excellent knives. If he doesn't, then it doesn't matter what kind of steel he uses or how he makes the knives.

As far as ease of sharpening goes, if you use the right tools for the job and know what you are doing, neither is all that hard to sharpen or keep sharp. Ask the maker what he would suggest using to keep the knife sharp if you are not sure. The real trick is in not letting it get too dull before you touch up the edge. That applies to all knives, carbon or stainless, forged or stock removal.

For maintenance stainless has it all over the carbon steels, but you still have to take care of both. The word is "stain less" not "stain proof". All fine tools should be given proper care and if they are, they should last several generations whether they are made of stainless or carbon steel.

the initial sharpness of a ss blade is rather poor

???? I'm not real sure where you are coming from with this statement, but I would rather think that if the "initial sharpness.....is rather poor" you might have more of a problem with a maker than with stainless steel in general. There are all different kinds of stainless and all different kinds of sharp.:D
 
Stainless isn't as tough, so I wouldn't select it for a big chopper. I've had stainless blades that came scary sharp, and were easy to keep that way.

I happen to like stainless and forged, and am working on getting a few forged stainless knives into my collection. I have one now that was forged from S-30V, and one that is being forged from a steel that is close to stainless, D2. I will be looking into more in the future.
 
This is the input I was looking for. I should have stated all things equal regarding proper heat treat and edge geometry. My intentions are as a user. I have been to several cutting competitions and have witnessed the performance of forged blades. I have used and sharpened several of my high carbon forged fixed blades and have been pleased. I don't have any experience with custom stock removal knives. I actually like the patina high carbon steel gets over time. Just curious if high carbon steel as a user is a better choice of blade material over stainless.
Bob
 
Just curious if high carbon steel as a user is a better choice of blade material over stainless.
Bob


I think on a big chopper it is, but for any other use I don't think you will notice much of a difference.

There are lots of stock removal knives being made with high carbon steel blades.
 
This topic always gets my attention. There are so many variables that IMHO there is no satisfactory answer. I believe that you have to consider what you will be using the knife for. If you are going to do mostly fine cutting, any HIGH QUALITY knife will do the job. If you intend to heavy work like chopping, you will be best served with something like a Busse or Swamp Rat type of knife.

Neither Busse or Swamp Rat are forged, but they perform as well as most if not all forged blades and INFI seems to be rust resistant.

Over the years, I have owned forged blades that turned out to be crap and ground blades that were excellent. I have a Fehrman that is as good as any I have seen and it is ground.

There was an article in a police magazine that covered this subject. I wish I had kept it. Basically, it said what I just said. Just because a knife is forged from carbon steel does not mean it is good. Just because a knife is ground from ss does not mean that it is bad.

I have read many articles by blade smiths testing their forged blades against their ground blades. Of course, the forged blade always comes out on top. Whether intentional or not, I believe that the smith wants his forged blade to show up better, so it does.
 
If you want performance answers for stainless steels then it might be a good idea to ask some of the top finishers in cutting competitions. I know that Warren Osborne, Galye Bradley, Ted Ott and some others are useing M4 now with great results. It is my understanding that they have also tested several other stainless steels and would most likely be happy to pass along their findings.

Go to www.bladesports.org then to the cutters section for contact information.

Daniel
 
Fellas,
I've seen some very nice stock removal blades lately, and although my passion lies with the fixed, forged blade, I was thinking about purchasing a fixed blade, stock removal (stainless steel) custom. So, my question is, those that have experience with both, what are the pros and cons regarding performance of stainless steel (i.e edge holding, sharpness, ease of sharpening, maintenance etc).
Bob



http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/lowdown/lowdown.html
 
The biggest advantage in forging is more control over shape, when you forge you can easily pull much wider blades than the piece of stock would allow if simply ground into a blade. I did a batch of blades last week, all using 1/4 x 1-1/2" stock, they were all over 2" wide at the choil when forged... cant do that with a bandsaw and grinder. Plus its just plain fun, something very satisfying about forging a blade.

Although it has nothing to do with actual forging I personally prefer steels that I can differentially heat treat, and I usually harden MOST of the blade which is a big advantage over a narrow band of hard steel (different topic though). Cant really differentially heat treat air hardening steels, not to my knowledge anyhow.
 
not a big fan of large stainless blades in my expierence they are harder to take a good edge and not as shock resilent as a good carbon steel piece. As for stock removal vs forged there are some fantastic carbon stock removal knives out there that i am sure will not let you down but to me forged has just got how can I put it without sounding corny I guess you would say soul to me
 
If I understand the article correctly that Sam posted, there is no advantage of forging, aside from the makers standpoint. I guess it boils down to steel types, high carbon steels are easier to forge. This begs the question does it matter if a maker uses 5160 and if he grinds it, rather than forging it, there will be no difference regarding blade performance, assuming all else being equal? I do like the advantage of a knife being easy to sharpen which seems characteristic of high carbon steels. I'll admit, there is something that appeals to me knowing that a blade was forged.
Bob
 
steel type, heat treat, geometry are the keys. I would also add that if you stock remove a blade from conventional oil hardening steels, such as 10xx, W2 etc., its been my experience that there is less chance of warpage if you go ahead and do a few normalization cycles. Dont know exactly why, but ive found that to be consistently true in my experience.
 
In the simple tool steels, it doesn't matter one I -otta whether it is forged or stock removal. It has already received all the benefits from the forging process at the steel manufacturer that it is going to get. The best any smith can hoop to achieve is not to screw it up!

Differential heat treat?
Either type of maker can do it.
Forged stainless. Don't do it. Sounds cool. But puts unreal stress in SS that cannot be relieved.

Can't get the wide or broad blades with stock removal? Bull! It just cost the maker Much More. Forging is a cheaper way to get blades from thick over sized bars or rounds of steel.

Tougher? D-2 in the Knife world isn't considered SS. In the Steel industry it is. It is used on punch press and die machines taller than most peoples houses. Handling many tons of shock and shear pressure. Just what does a person need to chop down. If it can shear and mold steel, I really don't think chopping on a little bit of wood is going to impress it much.

And Lastly. We don't make Knifes out of stainless steel. The Chinese do. We don't. We use either high alloy steels, and or high speed steels that are also alloyed with enough C. an a few other elements that also have the added benefit of rendering them somewhat stain resistant. Not stainless. 154-cm, and ATS-34 for instance are jet turbine steel. Requiring shock resistance, and hardness retention to 1000 F. It is very high tech stuff. And there is a lot wilder out there. The heat treat range on these steels do not lend themselves to forging. It is simply too highly alloyed.

Hard to sharpen? Ever herd of diamond hones. The old oil stones were your great grand dad's tools. Get with the moder world! Polish on the palm of the hand? If the chosen steel has so little abrasion resistance that the palm of your hand will change it, It is "NOT" going to handle any type of real work in the field. A Lovett Knife can fully dress out a couple dozen deer in the field. Most knives out there have to be resharpened several times on one deer! Now you tell me. Say it takes one sharpening during the field dressing to get the job finished. Compared to no extra sharpening on 24 or many, many more, with a High Alloy steel. Who is spending the most time sharpening his knife? By the way. None of those winning cutting comp. knives were forged! Nobody wants a differently tempered knife bending the blade in the middle of a competition. It's a neat way to show a hammon line. but of little use with the steels available today. It sounds exotic, but has been around for centuries. It's way old school. It usually means the edge is heat treated and the rest of the blade is nothing more than what cold roll steel is. It has never been thru the transformation to hardened Steel. There are a few that do it correctly, and fully harden and then draw the spine. But very few. This also will not give the new wave wild Harmon. So it has fallen out of favor. Now it is all about looks. Not performance.
 
In the simple tool steels, it doesn't matter one I -otta whether it is forged or stock removal. It has already received all the benefits from the forging process at the steel manufacturer that it is going to get. The best any smith can hoop to achieve is not to screw it up!

Differential heat treat?
Either type of maker can do it.
Forged stainless. Don't do it. Sounds cool. But puts unreal stress in SS that cannot be relieved.

Can't get the wide or broad blades with stock removal? Bull! It just cost the maker Much More. Forging is a cheaper way to get blades from thick over sized bars or rounds of steel.

Tougher? D-2 in the Knife world isn't considered SS. In the Steel industry it is. It is used on punch press and die machines taller than most peoples houses. Handling many tons of shock and shear pressure. Just what does a person need to chop down. If it can shear and mold steel, I really don't think chopping on a little bit of wood is going to impress it much.

And Lastly. We don't make Knifes out of stainless steel. The Chinese do. We don't. We use either high alloy steels, and or high speed steels that are also alloyed with enough C. an a few other elements that also have the added benefit of rendering them somewhat stain resistant. Not stainless. 154-cm, and ATS-34 for instance are jet turbine steel. Requiring shock resistance, and hardness retention to 1000 F. It is very high tech stuff. And there is a lot wilder out there. The heat treat range on these steels do not lend themselves to forging. It is simply too highly alloyed.

Hard to sharpen? Ever herd of diamond hones. The old oil stones were your great grand dad's tools. Get with the moder world! Polish on the palm of the hand? If the chosen steel has so little abrasion resistance that the palm of your hand will change it, It is "NOT" going to handle any type of real work in the field. A Lovett Knife can fully dress out a couple dozen deer in the field. Most knives out there have to be resharpened several times on one deer! Now you tell me. Say it takes one sharpening during the field dressing to get the job finished. Compared to no extra sharpening on 24 or many, many more, with a High Alloy steel. Who is spending the most time sharpening his knife? By the way. None of those winning cutting comp. knives were forged! Nobody wants a differently tempered knife bending the blade in the middle of a competition. It's a neat way to show a hammon line. but of little use with the steels available today. It sounds exotic, but has been around for centuries. It's way old school. It usually means the edge is heat treated and the rest of the blade is nothing more than what cold roll steel is. It has never been thru the transformation to hardened Steel. There are a few that do it correctly, and fully harden and then draw the spine. But very few. This also will not give the new wave wild Harmon. So it has fallen out of favor. Now it is all about looks. Not performance.

Nicely said
 
Mike that was well put!

Gonna be at the show this year or what?

Spencer
 
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