Please Critique Kitchen Knife Designs

A

AlaskanHunter

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Nov 23, 2013
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Please advise/ comment/ critique my designs before I destroy an otherwise good piece of .070 AEB-L. This is my second attempt at kitchen knives, and my first that is not a direct copy of an existing knife. What am I doing wrong and how can I improve these designs?
Chefs%20Knife_zpslw7lt9to.jpg

Mini%20Santoku%20v2_zps3uoh12m8.jpg

Paring%203.5%20in%20v6%20v3_zpsls6w805f.png

I'm not planning on finishing them to .001, that's just what Fusion 360 set them at. Rounding dimensions to the nearest .01 should be more than enough for primary dimensions.
Thanks,
Keenan
 
Im no kitchen knife expert...but the angle in the first one from handle to the blade seems really severe. I would have the handle level with the blade. Hopefully that makes sense
 
It totally makes sense to level the handle in relation to the blade. From an aesthetics perspective, it looks better when I draw it that way, however, doing so leaves me at square one with the problem I was trying to deal with in the first place. My wife likes to use an exaggerated rocking motion with this style of knife when finely chopping or mincing, but often comments about hitting her knuckles on the cutting board when she does. I was attempting to give more clearance from the bottom of the handle to the cutting surface. Do you have any suggestions for a work-around for this problem? I've thought of simply using a wider piece of steel, but do not have any on hand, and shipping is expensive and slow to my part of AK. Unless I can find an alternative solution, I may be forced to order another piece of AEB-L. :chargrined:
 
Ahh, gotch ya. My only kitchen knife experience is with pearing knives. What I would do is go onto the custom kitchen knives forum part of the exchange and look at their designs to draw inspiration from. I'm sure if you find some of the guys who do a lot of kitchen knives and contact them with design questions they would be willing to help! I have learned so much just by looking at other people's work!
 
I am not a kitchen knife expert either but I will share my observations. I did a little research before making my last kitchen knife set. I even spoke to a chef who gives classes on how to work with kitchen knives. What I found was that a lot of amateurs like the rounded edge profile because they can rock it back and forth as you describe. Experienced users and pros tend to like a little belly by the tip but a straight section leading into the heel of the blade. What this does is it completes the cut when the blade rocks down and contacts the cutting surface. This way you don't get a lot of partly connected pieces of food after the chopping. This straight section of the blade also acts as a stop which is hard to rock beyond and keeps the handle and your knuckles from rocking too low and impacting the cutting board. Of course this design feature is paired with the proper blade width or height at the heel in order to provide the necessary clearance for your knuckles.

Your designs definitely could benefit from more height. Paring knives are a bit different since they are not the go-to for chopping.
 
i4Marc said:
I am not a kitchen knife expert either but I will share my observations. I did a little research before making my last kitchen knife set. I even spoke to a chef who gives classes on how to work with kitchen knives. What I found was that a lot of amateurs like the rounded edge profile because they can rock it back and forth as you describe. Experienced users and pros tend to like a little belly by the tip but a straight section leading into the heel of the blade. What this does is it completes the cut when the blade rocks down and contacts the cutting surface. This way you don't get a lot of partly connected pieces of food after the chopping. This straight section of the blade also acts as a stop which is hard to rock beyond and keeps the handle and your knuckles from rocking too low and impacting the cutting board. Of course this design feature is paired with the proper blade width or height at the heel in order to provide the necessary clearance for your knuckles.

Your designs definitely could benefit from more height. Paring knives are a bit different since they are not the go-to for chopping.
Click to expand...
How much height would you recommend adding to each? 2.5 or 3 inch overall height on the chef knife? What about the "santoku-ish" one? Any recommendations for the paring knife?
Do you have any other suggestions for improving my designs?
 
I don't know how much height to add. I think that probably depends on the user and the size of their hand. It differs from user to user. Ladies with more petite hands will require less clearance while big dudes with fat paws like myself will need more. A good idea might be to draw out your design at actual size on a piece of sturdy cardboard. Add maybe an excessive 2.5" to the blade height. It will get trimmed later. Cut out the blade profile including the finished handle size. Have the user hold the template at the edge of a counter top with the excess blade height running past the edge of the counter. With the knife aligned in a normal cutting angle, as if it were at rest on a flat surface, raise the hand/knife until there is enough room between the knuckles and the counter surface (1/2"?). Then mark where the counter surface is on the template. Trim your template and modify your design drawings to use that height. If more than one person will be using the knife regularly, take the measurements of their hands into consideration as well.

The paring knife doesn't require the same considerations because it is used differently. The Santoku could use a little tweaking. Maybe rotate the cutting edge line to the right in relation to the rest of the blade. This would result in more of a wedge shape with more height at the heel than at the tip. Also try straightening out the right half of the edge leading into the heel. Looking at other Santoku examples would help. In addition, perhaps bringing the line from the choil smoothly up into the line of the handle might look better. Right now the curve up from the choil stops at the handle where a whole new curve starts into the handle. Nic has the right idea. Whenever you are not familiar with something, get yourself familiar with it. Take the time to look at a lot of kitchen knives. Go to the kitchen knives forum and ask questions there and look at the knives by people who have made many, many kitchen knives. They will have figured a few things out. Take notes. Also go to the website below and look through the different classes of knives there. Make notes about proportions, dimensions and features. Watch the descriptive videos that talk about the measurements and features. A feature on many custom kitchen knives that gives your knives a refined and well thought out look is to radius the spine and choil areas. These are areas that contact your hands and fingers a lot. Square corners here can rasp at your skin with extended use and become irritating. Radiused edges are comfortable.



http://www.chefknivestogo.com/
 
I'm working on a redraw. Is this much of an improvement?
Chef%20Knife%20V2_zpsdliozsvs.png

Will try to get a redraw done on the santoku tomorrow.
 
Here are my thoughts.




1. Better flow into the handle along the spine to eliminate the kink at the handle/ spine junction.

2. Wider at the butt and wider at the front of the handle.

3. Move the handle swell forward. People don't usually hold kitchen knives at the back like a screwdriver. They tend to choke up on the handle. Many people also use a pinch grip in which they pinch the spine of the blade in front of the handle using the thumb and forefinger with the middle, ring and possibly pinky fingers on the handle itself. So having the swell forward on the handle puts it where the palm will be, forward.

4. Maybe a bit tall at the belly. Angling the cutting edge up towards the tip keeps your nice straight section and reduces the belly a bit but slims up that area.



As I mentioned earlier. I am NOT a kitchen knife expert. These are only my impressions. I only have a handful of kitchen knives to my credit so take my comments for what they are worth. This is the last set I made in case it helps you at all:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1355388-Kitchen-Knives-Set-Pic-Heavy


Go to the link I posted before and look at the knives there.
 
I like your "possible changes" re-draw of #1.
#2 isn't making me excited ... too much belly and the handle is too long.
#3 is awful.
 
just a little suggestion:
at this point in your process, I would be drawing with pencil, cutting templates with cardboard. It looks like the cad program you are using is having influence on the design in a way that maybe you are not intending.
Once you have a template in hand that feels good in use ( practice with it on your cutting board) then import a picture of the template right into the cad program at the correct scale. Now you can trace the picture and tweak from there.
 
I agree with Timos. I tried to comment on this earlier but I couldn't get the post to go through. Drawing by hand is very helpful. You can see proportions more accurately and your hand/eye coordination will tell you when a line doesn't feel right. Use the computer to clean it up but do as much as you can on paper first.
 
i4Marc said:
I agree with Timos. I tried to comment on this earlier but I couldn't get the post to go through. Drawing by hand is very helpful. You can see proportions more accurately and your hand/eye coordination will tell you when a line doesn't feel right. Use the computer to clean it up but do as much as you can on paper first.
Click to expand...

Totally agree!
 
i4Marc said:
Here are my thoughts.




1. Better flow into the handle along the spine to eliminate the kink at the handle/ spine junction.

2. Wider at the butt and wider at the front of the handle.

3. Move the handle swell forward. People don't usually hold kitchen knives at the back like a screwdriver. They tend to choke up on the handle. Many people also use a pinch grip in which they pinch the spine of the blade in front of the handle using the thumb and forefinger with the middle, ring and possibly pinky fingers on the handle itself. So having the swell forward on the handle puts it where the palm will be, forward.

4. Maybe a bit tall at the belly. Angling the cutting edge up towards the tip keeps your nice straight section and reduces the belly a bit but slims up that area.



As I mentioned earlier. I am NOT a kitchen knife expert. These are only my impressions. I only have a handful of kitchen knives to my credit so take my comments for what they are worth. This is the last set I made in case it helps you at all:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1355388-Kitchen-Knives-Set-Pic-Heavy


Go to the link I posted before and look at the knives there.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll redraw tonight with your suggestions. This time I'll paper and pencil it, along with cardboard cutouts.
Thank you all for you coaching on this. It will take me much longer than originally anticipated to hammer out these designs, but there is no point in doing it at all if l'm only going to do a halfway job. If I can improve these designs well enough, would you gentlemen be willing to advise me throughout the build via a WIP?
 
Marc, how comfortable is the handle design that you used in the set you made? Should I ditch my handle design in favor of mimicking the design you used in the knife set you made? I would rather start over the design process rather than attempt to "fix" an inherently inferior design. I'm just not sure if that's where I'm at.
 
You're doing fine. Everybody goes through their own process for distilling an idea or design down to it's essence or optimal form. You are going through yours. Hang in there. I didn't show mine with the intent that you need to copy it. I only offered them as how another person optimized their own design. The hope was just that you'd get some inspiration in a general sense as to how lines flow together and how form enhances function. What may not be immediately apparent when you look at my photos is that from a top view, the handle is almost diamond shaped. You can see the bevel at the front of the bolsters but the widest part of the handle falls right at the center of your palm when holding the knife in a pinch grip. It then tapers down to the butt. There is no chance of your hand slipping backwards though because of the flare in the profile view. This is just the way I did it. It doesn't make it THE way to do it. I thought (while I had the knives) that they were very comfortable and well balanced. They are with the end user now and I have been getting nothing but rave reviews every time I see and speak with the gentleman. Stay with your design. But take some time to do as I suggested. Go and look at a lot of knives. Go to that link I gave you and watch the videos. Listen to the guy speak about the knives. Then use the things you learn to modify your designs in a way that makes sense to you. You can do this. I can't speak for the others here but I suspect you will get all the help you need as you proceed.
 
I've got another redraw of the chef knife.
Chefs%20Knife%20Redraw_zpsaktbjc3b.jpg

This is a "tracing" of my hand drawings in Fusion 360. I'm now about out of scrap cardboard after it all, and have numerous pages of drawings.
 
I think that's looking really good now. If that is a 1" grid then fat paws will just have enough knuckle clearance when holding in a racquet-type grip. Ladies and pinch grippers should have plenty of room. If I was going to finesse that drawing I might extend the belly back another inch or so to soften the belly a bit while leaving plenty of flat section. That's a nit picky thing. I think you are on your way.
 
i4Marc said:
I think that's looking really good now. If that is a 1" grid then fat paws will just have enough knuckle clearance when holding in a racquet-type grip. Ladies and pinch grippers should have plenty of room. If I was going to finesse that drawing I might extend the belly back another inch or so to soften the belly a bit while leaving plenty of flat section. That's a nit picky thing. I think you are on your way.
Click to expand...
A couple of thoughts I had after posting: Should I have the butt of the handle a bit wider in proportion to the front? Is the swell of the handle too far forward now?
After looking at many of the knives on the website that i4Marc posted and noticing that most were at or just under 2", I opted to shrink the height back to 2". I hope I don't regret it.
I'll try to soften the belly of the blade, and extend it back a bit.
Thanks for your patience and help.
P.S. yes it is a 1" grid
 
AH,

Let me ask you this. Who is the knife for? Are you making this for yourself, your significant other or for customers? If you know the person/persons who will be using it find out how they use kitchen knives. What type of grip do they use? Do they hold it farther back on the handle or choke up? Racquet grip or pinch? That will give you a good idea where to place the swell. The swell is common on western style or "Yo" handles. Traditional Asian style or "wa" handles are straight or slightly wider in the back with an oval, "d" or octagonal cross section. So you don't HAVE to put a swell in if you don't want to. I think where you have the swell now seems like a pretty good location to me (for those who pinch or choke up). The flair in the back is up to you. I tend to like a bigger butt (on knives) because it offers a secure grip and adds "forward motion" to the look of the knife. But that is what MY eye tells ME. As a designer you have to get used to listening to your inner designer's voice. If it looks good to you a certain way and it doesn't detract from the knife functionally then that is a viable option for you. Naturally you should try a variety of ideas to see which you like best. Then before you put marker to steel make a few models from cardboard or hardboard to see how it feels. Rock the model's blade on a counter top to see if the belly curve you chose is smooth and efficient. Keep in mind, the curve of the belly isn't just for looks or smooth chopping. It also determines how big a piece of food/vegetable you can get under the blade when rocking/chopping with the tip of the blade on the cutting board. If the user lifts the knife and chops straight down the belly isn't as big an issue. If their chopping style keeps the tip on the cutting board, rocking the heel of the blade up and down, the curve of the belly will be very important. It determines how high the blade can be rocked without the tip digging into or catching the cutting board. Your models will also tell you if the handle dimensions fill the hand adequately with comfortable contours. Make one with the handle swell farther back and one with the swell forward. Make a 2" tall blade and a taller one. Which feels more natural for the way the end user will use it? It's a process. You shouldn't expect to draw something up, make a finished knife from steel and have it be perfect. Work out the variables now with drawings and models when making changes are easy. Then go make a knife.
 
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