Putting secondary bevel on a Mora?

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I have been playing with carving lately and as everyone knows, the Moras really shine for that. But man that razor edge scandi sure doesn't last very long. Has anybody had luck with putting a micro bevel on a scandi grind? I don't want to mess up the grind, but I definitely would like some added edge toughness.
 
I normally strop my scandi's, and they start to develop a micro convex edge. It actually makes the edge tougher, in my experience.
 
Thanks, that's what I was hoping but I didn't want to mess up the scandi bevel if it didn't help. I'm still just getting my feet wet with this grind so it's a learning experience. :thumbup:
 
I always give mine a small secondary bevel....I find they keep a better edge and actually seem to carve wood a little better, at least in my hands....
 
Well, I think the days of the "scandi-purist" phase are numbered. It was a fun trend while it lasted, but more and more people are getting less and less anal about the scandi phenomena.......Well that's how my brain reads it. Its a great grind and works wonders on the fuzzies. You know what, a micro-bevel won't change that.....Even if the scandi nazi's tell you it will.

Then again....I apparently don't know sharp and I sure as hell can't whittle a passable spoon!
 
yes, a small convex micro-bevel is how I configure all my Moras. Much much better edge retention. Never missed the pure scandi grind.
 
Thanks, that's what I was hoping but I didn't want to mess up the scandi bevel if it didn't help. I'm still just getting my feet wet with this grind so it's a learning experience. :thumbup:

You and I both !!! Matter of fact I just tried to file a scandi on one of my 'chete's and lets just say Its not quite as easy as convexing... or anything else for that matter..
 
This is good to hear, I thought I was breaking a sacred scandi rule :D I do like how they just melt through wood but the delicate edge was aggravating.
 
I put a micro bevel on most of my Moras. It seems to make them a little more resistant to chipping and it makes it easier to resharpen.
 
Is it true that if you put a 2ndry on a Scandi you lose any advantage it may have had over a full flat? If not, exactly why not?
 
Is it true that if you put a 2ndry on a Scandi you lose any advantage it may have had over a full flat? If not, exactly why not?

Why Not?

The main advantage of the scandi on wood carving as I see it is that the grind is self-aligning. You place the flat of the bevel on the surface of the wood and with some slight downward pressure the edge digs into the wood. You control the bite by how much pressure your force downwards during the slice. This self alignment property is not interferred with after putting a small secondary bevel (microbevel). I suppose in practice you have to put slightly more downward pressure to achieve the same bite in wood but for all intensive purposes this is not noticeable. At least this has been my experience working with scandi knives pre- and post microbevel.

At some point, however, a very large bevel will begin to interfere with this property and to achieve the same cut you will have to lift the spine slightly higher rather than resting it on the bevel. Of course, if you are used to using a flat ground knife or a convex knife then this presents no problem because you are used to fully controlling the angle of the knife when making fuzzies and slicing wood. Somebody once said that the flats of a scandi are like training wheels for wood slicing.

Second reason. It is true that you are putting a more obtuse angle on the secondary bevel at the edge compared to the single angle to zero edge characteristic of a true scandi. However, in the end, sharp is sharp. One reason why micro-bevels are an effective sharpening method is that folks while sharpening often don't take the primary bevel all the way to zero. They leave small flat spots because they didn't sharpen enough to raise the burr and knock it off multiple times, or they didn't do this in a completely even manner across the entire edge. Putting a micro-bevel on the blade is very effective at knocking any wire edge that you might have on the knife. It is also often effective enough to take that little bit of metal contributing to the flat spots on the edge away creating a clean zero edge across the cutting surface at a slightly more obtuse angle. It does all this in a few seconds while several additional minutes might be required to truly sharpen the primary bevel. On a scandi, this is far more so than other grinds because those flats necessitate removing a lot of metal.

In any event, I find that most people into knives obsess about sharpness to the point of impracticality. You can very effectively work a knife well beyond the point where the usual sharpness tests have failed. You don't need to tree top or wipe hair away from your arm in order to carve wood and make fuzzies. Sure, you need a sharp knife to work effectively but beyond a certain point, being more sharp does not really help your task. In worse cases as outlined in the OP, the edge is weakened enough by a too acute angle where it will not hold onto its sharpness. To me, that is far more of a detriment to using a tool (it losing its edge rapidly), then one that is a slight compromise on cutting efficiency but provides an edge for a long period of time.
 
Frosts of Sweden (makers of Mora) themselves recommend a 20 degree secondary micro-bevel on any of their blades that are used as general purpose knives. They only recommend the zero degree bevel if the knife is used EXCLUSIVELY for wood working. I put a 20 degree micro-bevel on my Mora knives with my Work Sharp after working a new blade's primary bevel on a flat stone.

That wide bevel is for ease of sharpening more than anything. It's really a built in angle guide. If you're out when it's -40F and have to sharpen your blade, you're really relying more on gross motor skills instead of fine motor skills, it's much easier to hold that bevel flat on a stone and maintain it than it is to try and hold 20 or 25 degrees on a smaller bevel.
 
I imagine that most working scandi knives get a bit convexish from the strop. It only takes a few seconds to strop a scandi back to baby skin shaving sharp.
 
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Frosts of Sweden (makers of Mora) themselves recommend a 20 degree secondary micro-bevel on any of their blades that are used as general purpose knives. They only recommend the zero degree bevel if the knife is used EXCLUSIVELY for wood working. I put a 20 degree micro-bevel on my Mora knives with my Work Sharp after working a new blade's primary bevel on a flat stone.

That wide bevel is for ease of sharpening more than anything. It's really a built in angle guide. If you're out when it's -40F and have to sharpen your blade, you're really relying more on gross motor skills instead of fine motor skills, it's much easier to hold that bevel flat on a stone and maintain it than it is to try and hold 20 or 25 degrees on a smaller bevel.

I'll go along with both things you are saying there.

Not only does it make sense to change the edge angle if you find it isn't tough enough for the material you are working but also from accounts I have seen of natives the practice is commonplace beyond Moras. Of three sabre grinds from that region for different uses, utility, hunting, woodworking, that we tend to lazily bucket categorize as Scandi, only the woodworking ones tend to be whetted through rather than having the extra bevel.

And for what you say about an advantage of the whetted through one being that it has a “built in angle guide” for sharpening I figure that may be plausible too. It's not something I'd find advantageous but it would be egocentric of me to dismiss the idea that others couldn't make use of that. However, it is one of the reasons I dismiss that type of grind. I don't judge a cars performance by how easy it is to put air in the tyres or fuel in the tank, and similarly I have yet to need to judge a knife with how hard it is to sharpen as a factor. But I digress.

What I trying to follow up on as the subject has come up is not whether one should stick an extra bevel on a Scandi but what are the consequences of doing so relative to other types of grind, in this case full flat. Obviously if your knife isn't holding up to the task short of ditching it for something else you don't really have any option. And I don't find that peculiar to Scandis, I'd increase the edge angle of a convex that wasn't holding up for the same reason.

My personal belief is that Scandis, even the whetted through ones, don't necessarily cut anything better than other sorts of grinds. I've had humble flat ground knives that'll cut a just as well as a Scandi even on wood, and I've long suspected a SNAFU with the way people often interpret correlations. Scandis tend to be thin, and therein lay the genius behind the cutting power, not because they are sabre ground, whetted through or not. For the moment though I'm trying to suspend my understanding of that so I can play along.

In order to play along I'm going to take a position I don't naturally hold, and I'm going to suppose there is something magikal about the performance of the whetted through Scandi. So, for the next ten minutes I'm going to suppose there is something special about the way they work wood. I'm going accept there is truth in the often asserted tale that it is not only in sharpening that there is an advantage but there also something great about the way the grind can be positioned against a twig to be cut. On that, supposedly having given away that ground, what next. If those have the advantage against a full flat what if you add an extra bevel? Now to my mind that is a step too far. Any supposed advantage I have conceded above is totally lost now. I've come across a large number of other people that agree with that, even Scandi [whetted through] lovers. In fact, if memory serves well a good example here would be the testimony of Brian Andrews. He certainly had a fifteen minutes of fame on this forum making those types of knives. As I recall it even he said that if you need to add a secondary bevel you'd be better served with a full flat. As I see it a consideration of the sectional geometry of both supports that.

In conclusion I'm thinking that if there is a whetted through Scandi you are adamant on retaining that isn't up to the cutting tasks you put it to adding a bevel is your only solution. But if you aren't determined to retain that knife you'd do well to consider the consequences of that against other grinds if maximizing cutting power is important to you.
 
I always end up with a secondary convex on mine as well. After being used, I strop them. Over time, there is a small convexed portion. I can't really tell any difference in cutting wood, though.
 
My personal belief is that Scandis, even the whetted through ones, don't necessarily cut anything better than other sorts of grinds. I've had humble flat ground knives that'll cut a just as well as a Scandi even on wood, and I've long suspected a SNAFU with the way people often interpret correlations. Scandis tend to be thin, and therein lay the genius behind the cutting power, not because they are sabre ground, whetted through or not. For the moment though I'm trying to suspend my understanding of that so I can play along.

I agree with that. I can't really notice any advantage to the scandi grind when it comes to cutting VS other grinds. You're right about the fact that most scandi grind knives are thin blade stock to begin with and that definitely helps reduce cutting resistance. When it comes to wood, such as fuzz sticks, etc, two of my knives that are thicker stock (1/8" and 1/4" respectively) that have hollow grinds with a 20 degree convexed edge carve very nearly as well as my Mora's. I do find that notching is easier for me to do with a Mora, but again, I think that the thin blade stock contributes to that more so than the actual grind of the blade.
 
One advantage that a scandi grind will have over a full flat grind is when the primary bevel needs to be cleaned up. The scandi will retain the blade thickness for quite a while (it will keep a larger portion of blade strength). The FFG will start to loose blade thickness immediately and therefore the blade strength associated with it.
 
1. I have numerous knives from Scandinavia and Finland. Some are factory-made. Some semi-custom. Two custom by "Trond." All but two factory MORA's (but a minority of the MORA's) came new with secondary bevels I could see easily or with convex primary grinds. In other words, but for two, they did not fit the definition of a "Scandi grind."

2. Several Scandinavian and Finnish makers posted on British Blades that the "Scandi grind" was an idea that did not come from their areas. They were ignored.

3. My Wife's great grandfather was a professional woodcarver from Germany who was brought over by the Pullman Car Company to do the woodwork in custom Pullman [railroad] Cars for the rich and powerful of the late 19th Century. I have several of his carving knives. Every single one has a convex secondary bevel, the natural consequence of free-hand sharpening.

It's a myth.

But we love myths. ^___^
 
On a thick knife like the Woodlore, the straight Scandi bevel ought to work fine (and it does). However, the blade of a Mora is a lot thinner, so a bevel the same width results in a significantly narrower angle at the cutting edge. If you want to shave with it, I'd leave a Mora with a straight shot from the transition down to the cutting edge.

If, on the other hand, you want to avoid chipping that razor edge on the first knot you carve into, it's prudent to put a slightly fatter secondary bevel on it. It'll still be sharp as hell, but your edge will last a lot longer.
 
I often regrind my Mora knives. I generally prefer hollow ground knives, and feel that they cut better than the factory scandi grind.
 
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