RATs of the Future

[Boats]

Yes, it's early, but I hardly believe that RC is going to stop at mirroring their Ontario line-up plus a necker.

What would you like to see RC tackle? Here's my list:

1. A carbon steel 4" spear point lock back folder with four mounting points for the clip. Preferably, the folder would have G-10 or micarta scales with liners against water infiltration between the scales and the steel liners.

Making a folder with CPM 3V, A2, or any other quality carbon steel aside from D2 would set the RAT folder apart from the rest of the market offerings.

Why a lock back? It's proven. It's tough. It's totally ambidextrous. Liners and frame locks are one for three and two for three respectively.

Most extreme duty folders are too highly priced for the guys most in need of them. With the hype bubble burst upon one well known maker of such tools, one that hasn't been there and done that after all, this market segment is ripe for the taking with the right product at the right price.

RC, with its quiet confidence and no BS marketing strategy, could make and market a bomb proof folder with total credibility.

Please don't just repeat the "me too" Model 1 folder. An AUS-8 liner lock with zytel scales was just not very exciting.

2. Something(s) in .25 inch steel. There's a whole thread on it so no need for a recap.

3. An upswept skinner or something with a clip point. Sometimes, when you really need a point, you need a real point, not some maximum strength simple geometry blade tip.

4. Different steels. Let the Ontario line fill basic requirements at everyday prices and do some sprint runs of standard models in different high end steels.

5. At least one smaller differentially tempered blade. Something the size of the current RAT-5 or RC-4 with a springy spine and tang as well as an RC 61-63 cutting edge would be amazing.

But that's just me.

 

[tknife]

"Making a folder with CPM 3V, A2, or any other quality carbon steel aside from D2 would set the RAT folder apart from the rest of the market offerings."

That would be top of my list. I would love to see a great company make a locking folder out of carbon or tool steel. The RAT3 basically folded in half would be perfection!

 

[beckerhead]

Most extreme duty folders are too highly priced for the guys most in need of them. With the hype bubble burst upon one well known maker of such tools, one that hasn't been there and done that after all, this market segment is ripe for the taking with the right product at the right price.

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[Boats]

Without reopening a big ol' nasty debate over colorfully false biographies in the knife industry, it should be no great mystery that Jeff & Mike won't be called posers by anyone with credibility.

Right now there is a prime window of opportunity to make a bombproof folding EDC for the mil/leo/backwoods market without any of the super spook/tactical hype BS that currently poisons that market segment.

Someone will jump into the void. For years there have been rumors of Busse or Bark River folders. Fallkniven has been warming up, but their current offerings are too gentlemanly, as is the expensive CR Sebenza. At ~$150.00+/-$25.00 there is a sweet spot in the market to both totally outclass current mass produced "tough" folders, and completely undercut those that are going for about $400.00 in the mid-tech market. Those $400.00 folders are indeed fine tools, but their prices are in part driven by the cultish attitudes of the respective makers' followers, not unlike the cult of the Macintosh computer allows Apple to charge a premium and continually "earn" it.

The RAT team has actually produced or endorsed a past design, though I personally was underwhelmed by the result. Failure (or modest hits) can be instructive. The next RAT folder needs to be a world beater, not a placeholder in the market.

The "tough folder" market is just itching to be reinvented/redefined by someone who can make a helluva user at a midmarket price rather than a collectible that can be used.

A folding RAT-3 that is less wide, a shade longer, and slightly more pointy for those smaller knife tasks would be a good place to start prototyping.

I think a responsive and nimble company like the RC venture, can fill that need.

 

[beckerhead]

Oops, didn't mean to pick at a scab. I was just curious, and didn't know it was an issue already discussed.

I would appreciate a brief email or just a link to allow me to read up on the aforementioned topic.

Thanks & again, sorry for the faux pas & the hijack.
Beckerhead

 

[R.A.T.]

We appreciate the confidence in us. When it comes to folders there are a lot of them on the market that we personally like. Some of Ken Onion's designs are something we have carried and the Al Mar SERE 2000 is still one of our favorites. The folder market is very competitive since it's hard to find two people that like exactly the same thing in a folder. Some like deep pocket carry, some shallow, some like frame locks, some like back locks, some want heavy-duty appeal while others want slimline design. So, what I'm saying is I doubt that any one folder will ever become the icon of the 150 dollar market. Mike and I are seriously looking into producing a USA made frame lock folder, but what we envision as a RAT folder may not appeal to everyone. With that said, your ideas parallel my own, so lets see where that eventually takes us.

Jeff

 

[R.A.T.]

I think he's talking about the Strider issue. We want get into on this forum but that should clear up the confusion.

Jeff

Oops, didn't mean to pick at a scab. I was just curious, and didn't know it was an issue already discussed.

I would appreciate a brief email or just a link to allow me to read up on the aforementioned topic.

Thanks & again, sorry for the faux pas & the hijack.
Beckerhead

 

[XMP]

As far as fixed blades go, I'm pleased to see the upgrade in heat treat over the Ontario line-up, but I'd love to see some of the basic knives in an upgraded high-carbon steel (e.g., A2).

 

[R.A.T.]

Ok, let's follow that idea for a moment. Would you still want the blades to be powder coated?

 

[beckerhead]

I am not a big powder coat fan in a folder. It's not a deal breaker, just not a preference. I would absolutely want screwed together construction for tinkering, and thorough cleaning purposes.

 

[texastonydobbs]

I don't mind powder coat (Black or Green w/Golden RC logo on blade)or satin bead blast finish,if & When the RC Folder hits the market USA made I will pick up more than one. liner lock or lock back does not really matter to me but I do like the already proven lock back.

 

[XMP]

Coating isn't a deal breaker for me either. I probably have a slight preference for non-coated, but I'd still be plenty interested even if it was coated.

My area of pickiness is actually in the color of the micarta. In my mind grey with a black blade seems "tactical", so for a wilderness/outdoors blade I prefer something in more of a natural/earthtone color. An olive or tan like on the 1095 RATs would be great. Again, this isn't a deal breaker, but I have stronger preferences here than I do on coated vs. non-coated.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Boats]

I was trying to allude to the "S" credibility problem without getting into it too much. So much for being subtle.

Yes, it is apparent that no one can be the icon with one product at a given price point. However, one has to start somewhere. An eventual series of sizes and blade profiles can all be developed from just one kick-ass design. Then you've built Mecca.

The Model 1 was a start. It proves you guys are interested in offering a folder despite the competitive nature and varied tastes of that market.

To my mind, the barrier that now needs to be crossed is the one that keeps you from making a folder that is the Amazon tough counterpart of the fixed blade lines.

The Model 1 was not that knife. I doubt any mere liner lock can be.

On a related note, I am not a fan of frame locks for reasons similar to complaints about liner locks. With the exception of the jewel engineered Sebenzas, I have yet to see consistent mass produced framelocks that don't eventually develop serious blade play issues over time. Try as one might, no one has yet figured out how to eliminate contact wear between the frame and the tang.

My other knock on framelocks is their lack of carry versatility. Framelocks as manufactured today are predominately right hand only, and given their design, they are usually tip-up carry only.

There is nothing wrong with being right handed. For some tasks I am right-handed myself. When I am carrying a pistol, my IWB holster is on the left. I want my folder clipped in the right front pocket in those circumstances. I have friends who also insist on carrying their "last ditch" weakside in case of a retention fight. With right hand carry only knives, they can't do this, so those limited option pieces are not carried by them.

So if you insist on making framelocks, please be smart enough to offer mounting options for either side at the minimum and a dual thumbstud or hole system to open it.

The above issues are why my EDC folders are currently four position Spydercos. Lock backs can be made as tough as you might want them to be depending on how much weight you want to deal with, they are more tolerant of wear due to the nature of their lock-up, but they do have issues of their own with stuff getting trapped in the lock-up area. Framelocks are not immune to trapped debris in the action either.

My issue with Spydercos revolves around their lightweight construction. Although many of them can be pushed hard I have had couple get torqued out of spec in the past so something unapologetically tougher would be welcome as long as it doesn't top half a pound or so.

A2 or CPM 3V would be my choice for a "We make 'em better," statement steel. A2 would of course be less expensive to mass produce, but CPM 3V would give you a legitimate claim to having made a bombproof folder without peer.

My experience with A2 is all in various Bark River knives. It develops a nice patina with some kitchen use and then it is pretty much maintenance free due to 5% chromium content. Wipe downs after immersion are still required but I've had no corrosion issues from the ambient salt air of the Oregon coast in extended camping at the beach.

I've only borrowed a CPM3V blade for some light handling around the kitchen. I was impressed enough that I'm waiting a year for a Skookum Bush Tool in that blade steel. at 7.5% chromium, it too should patina rather than simply rust away by looking at it funny.

Personally, neither A2 or CPM3V require coating, but people are corrosion-phobic these days to the point that patinaed carbon steel has fallen out of vogue. A coated stainless steel blade actually makes me laugh. It's like seeing someone wearing a belt, suspenders, and hip waders around town on a dry day.

I would hope those drawn to RC products in the first place would be smart enough to know the trade-offs involved in getting better steel performance, but like I always say. . . .

"A coating is put on a blade to give me something to sand while watching TV."

 

[texastonydobbs]

We are end users, not actually in the R & D room for RC and I am sure they have a basic plan of the folder laid out.Materials for the handle/blade ETC and a overall budget so the end user does not have to foot the bill for experimenting with different blade types or frame designs...and having to do alot of warranty work due to flaws ,Giving opinions on what we like in a folder is great and hopefully some ideas go hand in hand with what RC feels will make a name for there self in a already hard market to break into and not hurt or hinder your name and be profitably . I can not wait until this folder hits the production stage and start seeing them hit the shelves for the end users ,who decide if the RC folder is a winner with our money. I for one will buy one and if it is a great blade like predicted I will buy more than one.

 

[Boats]

I'm equally sure the guys don't mind ELU input either since they interact with us, we buy their products and virally market them.

I see no harm in playing amateur R&D. Actually we're more like amateur market research.

If the first RC folder appeals to enthusiasts on the basis of design and materials details, you can be pretty certain that it won't appeal to the mass market. If it is designed for, and compromised enough to appeal to the hypercrowded mass market, it likely won't appeal to the enthusiasts.

I think of the mass appeal RATs to be in the hands of the Ontario Knife Company. Those of us who are avidly following RC "up the ladder" are, by the nature of our intense cutlery interests, way harder to satisfy, but more rewarding to get as customers. I have four Ontario RATs, and will probably be buying the entire RC product line in plain edge over time.

Why wouldn't I tell Jeff and Mike what I want? It works for Bark River Knife & Tool. I can see RC duplicating that company's success with a totally different sort of knife philosophy.

What would be totally similar would be their respective responsiveness to input from customers.

BRK&T and RC I believe have users as their core audience because the makers are users. Too many knifemaking concerns have fanboys who are excited for whatever their personal knifemaking gods hand down to them from on high.

I buy Spydercos because I get to talk to, and even argue with, Mr. Sal Glesser.

I bought my RATs because I get to interact with the guys who design them.

I can correspond with Mike Stewart by phone, e-mail or post and have bought seven of his company's knives as a result, each with a handle material of my choosing.

Since Rod Garcia impressed me with both his low key web site and via email, I'm waiting a year for his knife,the Skookum Bush Tool Mk. 1, but it'll have some nonstandard spine jimping, inspired by the RAT design philosophy, at no extra charge. Mors Kochanski, the inspiration for the SBT, didn't envision spine jimping on a steroidal full tang CPM3V puukko, Rod Garcia basically said, "its your knife, I'll do the work."

Good feedback and awesome customer service rules this industry in the competition for serious buyers who drop hundreds or thousands of dollars of discretionary income on knives every year.

It never hurts for a maker to listen, unless it interferes with getting work done.

 

[R.A.T.]

This is the kind of feedback we're interested in, and what we listen to. Afterall, you guys are the end users of our knives.

On the A2 issue though...I love the steel and granted it would have a little better edge holding than 1095 but it's not going to have the flex we're getting with the 1095 heat treat recipe. Just food for thought.

What do yall think about 154CM?

 

[Boats]

1095 is great stuff and very much overlooked by small producers because it has a tricky heat treat, so thanks for exploiting its potential.

But I thought we were discussing folder steels or limited edition runs. The current 1095 fixed blades are great. I was thinking of alternatives to overdone D2 field blades. A2 will make a better alternate RC-6 than D2 will. The latter steel is not shock resistant enough for a blade that might chop. The educated ELU, whom I believe is already the RC market target, will know full well that one is trading off ultimate toughness for a keener edge and better edge holding. It's the same trade as one makes for D2, only better.

I wouldn't want a 1095 folder. The wear area on the tang where any coating would soon come off would be a constant rust problem. I don't need a folder blade to do extreme flexion because odds are that the stop pin or pins, through bolts, whatever, would shear or strip out before the blade failed.

A2 is not the most ductile steel, but it is nowhere near as brittle as any stainless steel. I'd love to own an A2 or CPM3V folder.

154CM is alright, but it is rather passe, being a glorified 440C. The 4% Vanadium of S30V makes it way better for the RC folder if stainless is the mandate. I want a folder to have two qualities first and foremost--good blade geometry so it will have a great edge when properly sharpened and then I want it to hold that edge as long as possible.

Anything up from AUS-8/440B is a step in the right direction.

 

[XMP]

Boats, I think we have two conversations going and intermingled. Part of the discussion regarding A2 and coatings was in regard to fixed blades. Sorry if I led your thread too far afield.

 

[Boats]

Hey, it's all good.

No to a 1095 folder. Don't even know if that was ever envisioned by anyone but me.

Yes to an A2 or CPM3V folder.

Yawn to a 154CM folder.

Okay with a S30V folder.

Can coat the tool steel ones if a must, but it's unnecessary.

Coating a stainless blade is a waste of powder coat but mall ninjas and the "real deal" mil/leo types might demand it.

Yes to an A2 fixed blade.

Way yes to a CPM3V fixed blade. I'd love it in a "TAK-2," so the amount of steel doesn't horribly jack the price.

No to coating on chromium containing tool steels, but I'll probably lose on that one.

If coatings are inevitable, make standard ones black w/gray canvas micarta and specials OD with green canvas or brown micarta..

 

[madfast]

here's my interpretation of a RC-3 folder

for me i prefer a real heavy duty lockback over a liner/frame lock. if you're talking american steels, i think 154cm, cpm-154, and s30v are about the only reasonable choices around...