relying on mechanical products

G

goshawk

Joined
Dec 27, 1998
Messages
297
I just saw the post of Alan's on gps systems
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against
gps.... It just reminded me of all the times
I've had problems with mech. things back in
the mountains. The compound bow, the coleman
lantern, coleman stove and other stoves, battery operated lantern, chain saw, motor generator, motor cycle adn 4wheeler. several
lock back and liner lock knives, small pully
systems, really nice jeweled compass. binocs.
etc... ad infinitum.
Most of these things preform very well year after year, but I think a person gets dependent on them and when it breaks down
were up a crick(I believe that's creek back
east)(and for you younguns the rest of it
is without a paddle) usually not repairable
where you are and no back up.
I'm not suggesting getting rid of conviences
but rather keep up on basic fundimentals and
have a contingency plan. Not necessarily have
two of everything, but rather something that
will work without the mech. in case.
The thing that sticks in my mind the most is
the compound bow I used to shoot. I've shot
a recurve all my life execpt for 3 years when
I shot a compound. It was a fantastic bow
and I got very deadly with it.. It busted
and I really had no way of fixing it. I did
have one of my old old old recurves with me
and it didn't ruin the hunting trip, but it
certainly could have.
wheua!!nobody ever accused me of never having
anything to say

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
I agree with your thoughts 110% GOSHAWK!
biggrin.gif


That is why I try to learn as many "primitive" skills as I can. I still have a LONG way to go, but getting knocked back to the stone age and being able to survive is a great back up plan.

The "gadgets" are to make thins 'easier' but it is not a good idea to rely on them 100%.
It is kind of like the students I teach.

They all want to be allowed to use a calculator. But if I allowed that, who will be able to fix the calculators that break in 30 years? Everyone can run one, but only somebody that knows WHY THEY WORK, will be able to build/fix them!
biggrin.gif


------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Goshawk:
I don't disagree with your statement, but remember what you have that is mechanical and what is not. A recurve can break just as easily as a compound, and they generally fail a bit more catastrophically when they go. Knowing how to survive without a tool is almost as important as knowing how to use the tool, and I'll always carry a backup of the important ones...

Plainsman:
Please, don't dis calculators...
smile.gif
I agree they are a poor tool to learn basic math skills on, but they are an invaluable one for using basic math skills. The HP 48G sitting in front of me was one of the reasons I survived Calc III, Diffy-Screw and Prob-Stats. And it runs the same processor that my first computer did...
smile.gif
And a room-mate of mine, a EE, probably wouldn't have made it past Circuits 101 without a calculator (Not that he had an easy time passing it anyways...
smile.gif
)

Stryver
 
Stryver I can tell you have never had a
compound bow come apart in your hands....
The recurve will just break end of story.
If a compound just breaks a string you had
better duck for cover. If a limb breaks
Katie bar the door.... If a string breaks
on a recurve put one back on. Some compounds
require a special bow press to fix and I
guarent4ee you ain't gona carry that around.
If my recurve breaks I can still make a bow
that will shoot(even without curing) similar
to my recurve. I also don't depend on sights
My point is that all the gagets and mech.
things are nice but don't go too far away
that you can't get them fixed where you are.
GPS is a calc. it will probably do a much
better job of telling you were you are within
400 ft.(they probably have been improved)
but if you depend on it (or anything else
mech.) and it breaks can you get along without it when it's crunch time?
By the way... I'm not against compound bows
(My oldest son shoots better with one) or
GPS or any calc. However I think calc. make your brain lazy. I just don't want to put all my marbles on the line for them.

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
STRYVER: I'm not saying that a calculator isn't USEFUL, BUT it is JUST a machine!
smile.gif
Remember, pocket calculators are less than 30 years old!! Before that, there was trig charts and slide rules!! The guys that knew how to RUN those BUILT the calculators to make their work EASIER!
biggrin.gif
Even 13 years ago, we were expected to know how to use TRIG tables and know HOW to interpolate in PRE-CALC...I never even got to use calculators in my college math courses either and that was "only" 7 years ago!!
redface.gif


That's what GADGETS are for: make things faster and easier, not REPLACE!
smile.gif




------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Plainsman:
I made it through Calc III with only a 4-function calculator, and I know how to use a slide rule (Which is also just a machine, as is an abacus), as well as trig tables. (Which they do still teach, thank goodness) However, I did things in math that did require a calculator, and I do not believe it makes your brain lazy, any more than saying riding a bike makes your legs lazy. It merely lets you go farther. And farther we went...
smile.gif


Goshawk:
I've had the good fortune not to have either bow break in my hands. I have seen the remnants of a rather spectacular recurve unplanned deconstruction. I do agree that utter dependancy is a big mistake, and the first lesson in the use of a tool should be how to accomplish the task without it.

Stryver, who's not quite sure how to send e-mail if his computer breaks... Just can't quite speak 56.6bps yet...
 
Actually, there are very simple and lightweight "presses" that can be used to work on a compound. They consist of nothing more than a string and small aluminum bar and weigh practically nothing. And under primitive conditions, a compound bow can be converted to a regular bow. Why throw it away just because the cable is broken?

Surviving human-style has been based on tool-using for at least 100,000 years and probably much longer. We are all tool users of one kind or another.

I think it would be imprudent to NOT learn how to use a compass because it's a new-fangled gadget. I think it would be foolish to NOT learn how to fell a tree with a chainsaw or an axe because they are modern tools, etc. etc. And there are many who do not know how to use a compass or an axe or a chainsaw.

In short, we need to learn many things to "survive." We can and should be learning the primitive skills. But we also need to master the tools that are available. If you are lost in the woods and you have a GPS in your pocket, you're not going to pull out your sewing kit, find a needle, magnetize it, drop it on the surface of a pool of water and find north. But if you pull out the GPS and it doesn't work, then what? Learn both. Or don't get lost in the first place by drawing landmark maps as you move through the wilderness.

Learn to use the tools that are available AND how to fix them and what to do if they are not available, i.e., we need to learn as much as we can and never stop learning--either about new things or old things. And learn to adapt. Your chainsaw may be broken, but you may be surprised at what you can scavenge from a broken chainsaw to help you survive a bad situation.

I'm all for learning the the most primitive and fundamental skills. But let's not ignore the tools that are out there. The chances that the average person will be in a survival situation where he or she is totally buck naked and miles from anything modern are, on average, slim to none (but it can happen).

Yes I know how to start a fire without matches. I learned it 40 years ago in boyscouts and I've done it a hundred times. But, I'm still going to carry a matchsafe into the woods. I know how to trap rabbits with snare and deadfall. I snared a rabbit just last winter. But I still like to get my rabbits with a shotgun or 22.

I have well developed botany skills and know quite a large number of edible plants and how to prepare them. But I still take processed food with me into the woods.

I have modern aluminum snowshoes but I know how to make primitive ones. I know the type of rock I need to make a primitive cutting tool but I always carry a good knife into the woods. I've made a dozen self-bows but I shoot the compound in competition and it's taken a lot of meat for me over the years as has my modern firearm, the muzzleloader. I've built dozens of lean-tos, bark shelters, etc, but still enjoy my 4# backpacking tent.
Etc. etc.

Relying soley on modern conveniences for survival may be foolish but ignoring them only perpetuates ignorance.

------------------
Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu



[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 01-16-2000).]
 
Maybe I didn't make my point clear. I'm not
promoting giving up new inovations and live
in the past.
My point was have an alternative!!!!!!!!!!!
should something go wrong, but then nothing ever goes wrong or we never forget or loose
our gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!right?

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
If the point is have an alternative, then what has that to do with failing technology? For instance, I've had compounds screw up on me on hunting trips. More than once. I had an alternative. Another compound. I always hunt with two. You could carry two GPS units around, etc. etc. It think that's a different issue than learning both primitive and modern survival skills although not entirely different, since if you learn primitive skills, they are presumably always available as a backup but with modern gear, you may or may not have backup equipment.

I think the key here is covered by the boy scout motto: Be Prepared. Whatever it takes to get the job done given what is naturally available and what you have set aside.

------------------
Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
I'm probably kicking a dead horse.
The alternative I meant was making do and
if necessary improvise. whatever.
not everyone can afford a duplicate nor
may want to haul around the afore mentioned.
My opinion only....
AGAIN I'm not against technology!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
Stryver hit it when he said he could do the math without a calculator, but he was able to go FARTHER with it! That is the ENTIRE idea of the technology! Go faster and further than if you didn't have it. I'm not saying DON'T USE IT, I'm saying have a backup to the backup...That means being able to do "without".

I normally have a backup bow too, when I bowhunt. My first line bow is a TAKEDOWN recurve. My second line is a ONE PIECE recurve. My third line is a one piece LONGBOW!
smile.gif
After that I need to "whittle" me a new bow! LOL Oh yeah, if I can't go with stick and string, my fifth line is a COMPOUND!
redface.gif
ONLY if arthritis forces me!!!
biggrin.gif




------------------
Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Goshawk,

I <gulp> admit it, about 10 years ago I bought on of those new fangled bows with the wheels and cables. I used it for one season and then got rid of it. I know this makes me a bad person and I will prolly go to hell, but I plead insanity, everyone talking about speed, carbon arrows, overdraws etc I figured I just had to be missing something.

I WAS, a pain in the rear, complicated, heavy, tempermental thing that I gave away as fast as I could.
smile.gif


------------------
Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Originally posted by goshawk:
I'm probably kicking a dead horse.
The alternative I meant was making do and
if necessary improvise. whatever.
not everyone can afford a duplicate nor
may want to haul around the afore mentioned.
My opinion only....
AGAIN I'm not against technology!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. But a point I would like to make is that this is a big forum with a lot of diversity and if people want to discuss the latest techno gee whiz thing out there then more power to 'em. And if people want to discuss chewing buckskin to make it soft, wonderful! There's plenty of room for both and maybe we all need to understand or at least have a healthy awareness of both.

As you say, we need to keep up on basic fundamentals, but by the same token, how many people can fix their car or truck (and know what extras to carry under such conditions) when it's broken down 25 miles back a two track in the middle of nowhere? And now we have snowmobiles and atv's that carry the average joe out into the middle of yonder and survival could very well depend on being able to know enough to clean a sparkplug or fix a stuck choke.

------------------
Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
I feel like I'm having to get the last word in. Myabe I'm speaking with forked tongue.
When you were speaking about vehicles in
back areas and fixing them.... I have a
4x4 truck 1972 chev. that if something goes
wrong 95% of the time I can fix and limp it
back. I have a car and my son has a new
truck that if something goes wrong you walk!!
I think they may be more reliable than the
older vehicles, but unless you have a diagnostic computer AND know where to hook it
up normally you have no clue what's wrong.
Even the computer can give you several reasons why it won't run. The information and tech. that has come along is staggering and awesome. I love the comforts that We have now days. I also don't believe that all the
tech has been for our good. Were told that
tech makes our lives better and were healthier....... I would agree our average
life span is longer, but I'm not sure were
healthier. We have more knowledge available
but are we better educated.
Are we passing down common sense things to
our kids or letting tv and the present school
system teach them ALL THEY NEED TO KNOW?
With all that said.. I won't say more on this
thread.
Oh by the way take a look at the first part
of my signature if you think I'm a stick in
the mud



------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
goshawk,

I'm not disputing anything you are saying about the ills of technology and its downside. In fact, I agree with you 100%. What I am saying is that people have a right to discuss what they want in this forum as long as its acceptable to the moderators. You seem to want to censor or criticize others for wanting to discuss things you are not interested in. And belittle them as--what was the phrase?--something about not getting too far away from their mothers.

I suggest that rather than criticize others for discussing things you are not interested in, why not start your own threads discussing topics in wilderness and survival skills that you are interested in and avoid the topics that don't appeal to you. You can even start a thread attacking the ills of technology rather that attacking people on the forum for discussing technologies. I for one would chime right in but I'm not going to attack people for using GPS or any other technology they want. It's their business what they use and what they want to talk about within the established parameters of this forum.

As a long-time frequenter of the archery newsgroups I saw the same debate over and over again in the guise of primitive bowhunters versus compounders. I watched it go on for years as it peaked with a kind of religious fervor. Then it boiled over into the muzzleloaders versus modern rifles and now again in old-style muzzleloaders versus modern muzzleloaders. I've even seen a touch of it in the general discussion in tactical versus traditional knives. Now we have it in primitive survival versus techno survival. All I can say is that this recurring debate is tiresome and boring, especially when it usually results in ad hominem attacks.

Now you can have the last word because I've just spoken my last words on this issue.


------------------
Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
Goshawk:
There are times I feel like tech is evil, and times I don't. At this moment, I sit here typing on my computer, and not thinking it is too evil, except for the afternoon I just burnt playing a game on it, which just means I'll go ski in the dark here in a wee bit.... I did have a professor who taught a class that basically said tech is evil, and it's only been bad for us. I never did figure out if that was just the standpoint for the class, or if he believed it, but I sure liked the class, if only to hotly contest it...
smile.gif


Anyways, to add something new to the conversation. Last week, I busted a belt in my car, fan/alternator/waterpump. I was about 20 miles from home in weather right about 0, and after pulling into a nearby car dealership, and discovering that no one in the entire town with a mechanic on duty was open, I decided my best bet would be to drive home, and hope my battery held out with my lights on in the dark. I made it home, had to stop and let the engine cool down twice (It still amazes me I can overheat when it's 0 degrees out...), and then I skiied to a auto-parts store and bought new belts (I now carry a spare). I didn't think much of this incident, I did get a friend to follow me the last half of the trip home (It was out of the city by then, and I didn't feel like standing on the side of the road when I could have a friendly car near by...).

Then, a week later, the temperature plummeted, and another friend of mine snapped a belt (It was about -45, the 'normal' time to break belts) He barely managed to get his car the two miles he needed to drive to a service station. As it was he overheated his car doing that. When he said he had a lot of problems getting his car there, I was baffled, then I remembered his car is only a few years old, and has power steering, power brakes, and probably power some other thigns too, none of which worked when he lost the belt. And he had a big 6 cylinder engine, displacing two or three times what mine does... All at once I was glad to have an '81 toyota corolla with a 1.8 four-banger. And still baffled that he didn't buy a spare belt...


Stryver
 
I didn't critize anybody for using GPS
As far as stating that somebody might not
have been away from their mother long enough
to miss their mother bringing them a glass
of milk. It was tongue in cheek.
I appologized in a thread a few days ago if
I offended anyone because it's just my opinion. The only reason I brought up Alan's
thread was because it started me thinking!!!
Either you are not reading my entire statement or you are reading something into
what I am saying.... reread the first couple
of sentences on the original post of this
thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I am out of line then I hope the moderators will chime in and tell me I'm out
of line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
goshawk,

I guess I lied about that last word thing.

I've reviewed the whole thread and I have to admit that I probably overreacted and no doubt was reading more things into your posts that you actually wrote. For that I sincerely apologize. I suppose I was still miffed about the flashlight thread and I mistakenly assumed that this was going to develop into the kind of trend I described above. As I've said before, I agree with you 100% on the issue of over reliance on technology and share your concerns so now I'm going to go gnaw on some deer hide to soften it up. I'm sure it will taste a little like crow.
smile.gif




------------------
Hoodoo

No, I do not weep at the world--I am too busy sharpening my oyster knife.
Zora Neale Hurston

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Lao Tsu
 
No need to eat crow....
I hope I can word posts in the future so as
not to cause misunderstandings and constirnation. sometimes I get very opinionated... Who me?
I hope there are no hard feelings.

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
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