Retention ring legality + legality of making pepper spray an impact tool. Esp. appreciate insight from officers.

[Hashishiin]

Hello, everyone. I notice that all kinds of companies sell ringed knives - CRKT, Benchmade, Boker's Manasherov... those seem to be carried by people with no problems or worries, no warnings from the manufacturer. I think I might just be a bit of a worrier though. I very often would EDC a Matriarch 2 with a retention ring, sold as a "signet ring", but it has all kinds of applications, like a glass-breaker. This is true of any ring though, any Karambit, any SOCP dagger, whatever, and those are sold all over seemingly without issue. My fear is that the retention ring could be interpreted as a "knuck"! I understand those are illegal (and kind of dumb - hey, want to buy my anodized rainbow knuck? Only $400...) and just wanted to be sure. And... it's called "wearing rings!". Knucks... jeez.

Of course I appreciate the input and knowledge of everybody here, but if there are any police officers here, could you tell me if you (and your best guess on your peers, I have a feeling the members of Law Enforcement here are a bit more understanding towards knives) would or could charge me with that law for just having a karambit-style ringed Ma2?
Circumstance: Young man, 25yo, walking down the street calmly, either alone or clearly with my woman. Something happened (you thought I was someone else, you wanted to ask a question about my shirt, whatever) to where you make contact, circumstances are not unpleasant, and I'm clearly sane and sober. You see my retention ring sticking out from the top of my clip, or in some way discover the ringed knife. I at no point allude to it being for hitting or use as a weapon.
Would you or your fellows even be thinking in terms of "that's a knuck", would you want to charge me like that? I know that this isn't a surefire answer, but it will help me gauge what the opinion of a cop might be.

Speaking of impact, was under the impression that even if you hit someone with a knife, you "used a knife", even if the blade did not come into play. I never go outside and carry a defensive tool that could cause great injury or similar, without spray, too. I was looking at my Microtech, specifically the glass-breaker, and wondered of the feasibility of attaching a slightly pointed cap nut to the bottom of my spray to make it more effective as an impact tool. Not pointed like a tac-pen, the goal is not to puncture, and not round, but.. similar to a MT glass breaker. Octagonal, perhaps. I would not be walking around hitting things with it or using it as a hammer, so it would not compromise the integrity of the spray. Is this legal, in LA County?

Thank you so much for the continued help and insight, BF.

 

[killgar]

There is no case law in California regarding ringed karambits, or rings on knives in general, so there is no definitive answer on the subject of their legality. But there are several cases where people were arrested and charged under the "metal knuckles" law for possessing items that don't come close to being weapons. As a result, in my opinion a person should avoid carrying any weapon with a ring attached. Weapon+ring= trouble.

Here is a link to the statute defining "metal knuckles". Decide for yourself if you think it applies to a knife with a ring on it. And then ask yourself if a cop having a bad day, or a prosecutor who looks for any chance to get a conviction might interpret a ring attached to a knife as a "metal knuckle". In my opinion, they just might, and then you're screwed.

https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16920.&lawCode=PEN

As far as attaching a spike or stud to a can of pepper spray, I don't see any reason to say that it was done for use as a weapon. Just call it an "emergency glass breaker". There's nothing illegal in California or LA about carrying a glass breaker.

And if you were to use a closed knife as an impact weapon, a prosecutor would most definitely regard that as a use of a "deadly weapon" (like assault with a deadly weapon). The basis for such a definition is broad- if it's reasonable to believe that the item, as it was used, could cause death, then it's a "deadly weapon".

I don't mean to speak for members of law enforcement, but if a hundred cops tell you that they would never bother to arrest you for something, that won't stop some other cop from arresting you for that very same thing. There is no "collective conscience" among law enforcement, no universal, nation-wide agreement regarding how to respond to every possible situation.

 

[Hashishiin]

There is no case law in California regarding ringed karambits, or rings on knives in general, so there is no definitive answer on the subject of their legality. But there are several cases where people were arrested and charged under the "metal knuckles" law for possessing items that don't come close to being weapons. As a result, in my opinion a person should avoid carrying any weapon with a ring attached.

Here is a link to the statute defining "metal knuckles". Decide for yourself if you think it applies to a knife with a ring on it. And then ask yourself if a cop having a bad day, or a prosecutor who looks for any chance to get a conviction might interpret a ringed knife as a "metal knuckle". In my opinion, they just might, and then you're screwed.

https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16405.&lawCode=PEN

As far as attaching a spike or stud to a can of pepper spray, I don't see any reason to say that it was done for use as a weapon. Just call it an "emergency glass breaker". There's nothing illegal in California or LA about carrying a glass breaker.

And if you were to use a closed knife as an impact weapon, a prosecutor would most definitely regard that as a use of a "deadly weapon" (like assault with a deadly weapon). The basis for such a definition is broad- if it's reasonable to believe that the item, as it was used, could cause death, then it's a "deadly weapon".

I don't mean to speak for members of law enforcement, but if a hundred cops tell you that they would never bother to arrest y u for something, that won't stop some other cop from arresting you for that very same thing. There is no "collective conscience" among law enforcement, no universal, nation-wide agreement regarding how to respond to every possible situation.

I know cops aren't a hivemind, I just figured the opinions couldn't hurt. Like I said, I think the cops who populate this forum are a bit more friendly towards knives than others So I take it all with some salt for sure.

Good advice, good advice. Thank you for the link. This does make me think, and I will take this into consideration. I mean... if the spray with a glassbreaker is already more friendly, and I already always have it clipped to my pocket, then it's almost as good as the ring, could even be better if I test a similarly sized object with such a nut on it.

I recently got a serrated Police 4 LW K390, and that's been the only thing that has kicked both my Matriarch 2 and my PM2 (or whatever pocket knife I'm using, Shaman, Native) out of my pocket for a little bit... That, with a wave, makes me feel just about as secure as the Ma2 did, and is also very useful for utility. I ain't shredding tape and sandpaper with it all day, to be sure, and I keep it nice and touched up. Also, the serration pattern on that specific model seems to be different than all the other Spyderco serrations - even better and less prone to snags. So, I am not exactly going unprotected even with just that can of spray and my trusty Police 4. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Well, I read the statute, and while my ring is actually a Signet ring, meant for fashion and never advertised to do any such increase of force or protection of knuckles... I also think, "Do I want to be the case law, stand up and prove it?"

 

[stabman]

Canadian Customs likes blocking lots of things from import. Metal knuckledusters or knuckleduster knives are prohibited.

Karambits are NOT illegal in the country...but Canadian Customs blocks some from import.
The determining factor is if the retention ring looks to be for retention, or if it appears designed for hitting. Some karambits they have blocked from import have bits sticking off the ring to make it more painful when struck...stuff like that. Some with such features do get past them, but some officers sure take issue with those "punchy" designs.

Cops will likely look at things the same way in certain locations.
A smooth ring (unless it's like one pound of brass stuck at the end of the handle) shouldn't be making most observers, including cops, think of you hitting things with it.

 

[Knife_Collector_101]

Canadian Customs likes blocking lots of things from import. Metal knuckledusters or knuckleduster knives are prohibited.

Karambits are NOT illegal in the country...but Canadian Customs blocks some from import.
The determining factor is if the retention ring looks to be for retention, or if it appears designed for hitting. Some karambits they have blocked from import have bits sticking off the ring to make it more painful when struck...stuff like that. Some with such features do get past them, but some officers sure take issue with those "punchy" designs.

Cops will likely look at things the same way in certain locations.
A smooth ring (unless it's like one pound of brass stuck at the end of the handle) shouldn't be making most observers, including cops, think of you hitting things with it.

From what most Canadians tell me, customs is always a crapshoot. It depends on the location of the port of entry. Some place all imports under a microscope, others just glance at the package description and send it through.

What’s interesting is that plastic knuckledusters are actually LEGAL in Canada. So if someone made a trench knife with a plastic handle and plastic knuckle guards, that would technically be legal to import.

 

[Knife_Collector_101]

There is no case law in California regarding ringed karambits, or rings on knives in general, so there is no definitive answer on the subject of their legality. But there are several cases where people were arrested and charged under the "metal knuckles" law for possessing items that don't come close to being weapons. As a result, in my opinion a person should avoid carrying any weapon with a ring attached. Weapon+ring= trouble.

Here is a link to the statute defining "metal knuckles". Decide for yourself if you think it applies to a knife with a ring on it. And then ask yourself if a cop having a bad day, or a prosecutor who looks for any chance to get a conviction might interpret a ring attached to a knife as a "metal knuckle". In my opinion, they just might, and then you're screwed.

https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16920.&lawCode=PEN

As far as attaching a spike or stud to a can of pepper spray, I don't see any reason to say that it was done for use as a weapon. Just call it an "emergency glass breaker". There's nothing illegal in California or LA about carrying a glass breaker.

And if you were to use a closed knife as an impact weapon, a prosecutor would most definitely regard that as a use of a "deadly weapon" (like assault with a deadly weapon). The basis for such a definition is broad- if it's reasonable to believe that the item, as it was used, could cause death, then it's a "deadly weapon".

I don't mean to speak for members of law enforcement, but if a hundred cops tell you that they would never bother to arrest you for something, that won't stop some other cop from arresting you for that very same thing. There is no "collective conscience" among law enforcement, no universal, nation-wide agreement regarding how to respond to every possible situation.

Kilgar, have you ever seen those dog leashes that have the plastic grips with finger holes? I’ve heard those have gotten people arrested in some areas. Same with the plastic “Hello Kitty” keychains. I’ve heard California is hostile to any kind of knuckleduster, whether it’s metal, plastic, wood or fiberglass.

 

[killgar]

Kilgar, have you ever seen those dog leashes that have the plastic grips with finger holes? I’ve heard those have gotten people arrested in some areas. Same with the plastic “Hello Kitty” keychains. I’ve heard California is hostile to any kind of knuckleduster, whether it’s metal, plastic, wood or fiberglass.

I haven't heard about the dog leash grips. My guess is that someone gave the cops attituded.

If by "Hello Kitty" you mean items like the one pictured below, I'm not at all surprised that someone might catch a charge for having one, again, especially if they give the cops a hard time (like some dumb, drunk, entitled college girl who says all cops are crooked/racist/etc). I've seen several varieties of such items. And it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "Hello Kitty" versions. I know I've seen pink ones.

It's too bad really, because my guess is that such items are more likely to be carried by women for self-defense, and they need all the help they can get. California sure is a wacky place, they just recently legalized nunchucks for self-defense, but a plastic, cat-shaped "weapon", that's forbidden.

One mistake people often make is thinking they are going to outsmart the cops. Like the cops have never seen such an item, or have no idea what it is, or are just stupid. Like the people who say "It's not a "weapon" officer, it's just a keychain/bottle opener/whatever". Yeah, good luck with that. Some people outsmart themselves right into a jail cell.

 

[Hashishiin]

There's so much BS deceptive marketing aimed at women, and, just as a result of it, women who do not know better sometimes have highly illegal things on them. When I first met my fiance, she told me about things called, Blades for Babes, and stuff like that, girl marketed influencers and sites selling rebranded cheap Chinese things like that cat knuckleduster, kubotans, rings with knives in them... not only are they usually bad at their intended purpose, but disingenuous, ineffective (Iphone-tazer), dangerous and illegal. It's BudK for women, and I have some BudK from my early days, ha.

But yeah, that is the thing, here is a cheap Schrade I bought to mess with and grind on and sharpen, vs the ringed Matriarchs I carry, vs the Police 4 I have taken to carrying in its stead:

https://imgur.com/a/WdELUIz

https://imgur.com/a/uWOLWPh

So, the Ma2 has a small dimple for thumb-grip aid in the "ice pick" grip I would presume, but seeing as though it faces back... I don't know, it definitely is more machined than the Schrade's ring. (I'm not carrying the Schrade, just assume that was a folder). 5x5, for example, just came out with a ring that looks like a thinner, flatter version of this Wise Men Company ring. I wonder if that would make a difference?

It's a weird thing, as karambits as a style are not illegal, but who's to say what they'll decide? The protrusion could do it. Attitude helps, too, but... I've definitely been copping (ha) the Police 4 most days this week...

 

[toker]

but if there are any police officers here

Several of my friends are police officers and they're the last people that I would ask for legal advice. They don't know every law and don't always understand the nuances. I've had to correct several of them on gun laws (legality of suppressors in CT, carry laws), which would be a lot more humorous if they weren't the ones who were expected to uphold the law.

One mistake people often make is thinking they are going to outsmart the cops. Like the cops have never seen such an item, or have no idea what it is, or are just stupid. Like the people who say "It's not a "weapon" officer, it's just a keychain/bottle opener/whatever". Yeah, good luck with that. Some people outsmart themselves right into a jail cell.

That's virtually identical to the weapon that the guy who attacked Lee Zeldin was wielding. Not sure if he'll actually get charged with knuckles, but we may find out today (Thursday).

 

[Hashishiin]

Several of my friends are police officers and they're the last people that I would ask for legal advice. They don't know every law and don't always understand the nuances. I've had to correct several of them on gun laws (legality of suppressors in CT, carry laws), which would be a lot more humorous if they weren't the ones who were expected to uphold the law.


That's virtually identical to the weapon that the guy who attacked Lee Zeldin was wielding. Not sure if he'll actually get charged with knuckles, but we may find out today (Thursday).

I was trying to find the right way to phrase it above, to get it across that I am aware that I can ask five different cops in my town about the laws and get five different answers. I could probably call my local police station, and it'd be a 50/50 on whether they say "Nope, 3" limit on folders". (untrue), nor would I be surprised to see the "palm test" used. I have thought of printing out a small copy of the LA County laws to put in wallet or messenger bag, just to demonstrate that I try to be law-conscious (not that it'd stop them from throwing me in the slammer if they really wanted to, but... this is moreso art, not science).

See, I'm firstly worried about the actual laws - (eg, being "taken in" is not a big deal if I have not committed a crime, and the officer only perceives I have). But, I figured it could not be unhelpful to see just what cops think about it, especially if the laws are ambiguous, like on this ring. Karambits are not illegal - the ring is a signet ring, made of aluminum, not advertised for fighting - but that may be poorly disguised as their motto is "Stay Armed" and they sell gun stuff. So... it's not written in stone whether this is legal or not. Someone would have to be charged and case law would have to be established, I thnk. That's why I was asking for both perspectives - for clearer laws, I won't care too much if a cop thinks it's this or that. Just like large folders. I carry those with confidence, because I know they are legal.

Oh, and I had not heard of this Lee Zeldin guy before, but I saw the video. Good catch of the guy's arm, he could have been hurt a lot worse.

 

[toker]

I have thought of printing out a small copy of the LA County laws to put in wallet or messenger bag, just to demonstrate that I try to be law-conscious (not that it'd stop them from throwing me in the slammer if they really wanted to, but... this is moreso art, not science).

If you're being arrested, they're not going to sit there an read a printout. Nor will them admit that they don't know the law or are interpreting it incorrectly.

 

[scdub]

I’m a LEO in CA and I don’t carry anything with a finger ring, or full-sized auto knives, or knives in such a way that they could be considered a “dirk or dagger”.

While it’s probably extremely unlikely to randomly be charged with a weapons violation while walking down the street, the odds of catching a charge go up exponentially (imho) following an incident where the weapon was USED.

AFTER you righteously defend the lives of yourself and your girlfriend with a “fighting knife modified to make it FASTER and MORE DEADLY” you could easily end up in prison if the cops/prosecutor involved just doesn’t like you or weapons in general.

“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, be aware that the only reason to carry a modified weapon of this type is to kill as many people as possible, as quickly as possible!!”

Sound familiar?

Even if the odds are in your favor, the potential consequences are very high, and you have adequate alternatives, so it’s probably not worth the risk.

 

[Hashishiin]

I’m a LEO in CA and I don’t carry anything with a finger ring, or full-sized auto knives, or knives in such a way that they could be considered a “dirk or dagger”.

While it’s probably extremely unlikely to randomly be charged with a weapons violation while walking down the street, the odds of catching a charge go up exponentially (imho) following an incident where the weapon was USED.

AFTER you righteously defend the lives of yourself and your girlfriend with a “fighting knife modified to make it FASTER and MORE DEADLY” you could easily end up in prison if the cops/prosecutor involved just doesn’t like you or weapons in general.

“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, be aware that the only reason to carry a modified weapon of this type is to kill as many people as possible, as quickly as possible!!”

Sound familiar?

Even if the odds are in your favor, the potential consequences are very high, and you have adequate alternatives, so it’s probably not worth the risk.

Yes, I have been slowly coming to the conclusion since I posted this, that since I would very often EDC that Matriarch 2 specifically for emergency use, if anything ever did happen, that's what I would have to defend my actions with. You will use what you carry - while this knife is not ILLEGAL, there are aspects like the potental prosecutor's quote that can make it look worse for me, therefore I should consider being smarter about my carry.

I'm coming to the realization that I should worry more about what is thought of what I carry if a day comes where I must, God forbid, defend myself, not what is thought in some unlikely stop under peaceful circumstances (I don't drink, fight, or hang around places where that stuff happens).

Since giving this thread some thought when I posted it, I've switched to carrying the serrated Police 4 K390 when I'd normally carry my Matriarch 2 (albeit kept my wave) instead, and have not felt under-knifed, not to mention what a great knife that is to actually use, amazing serration pattern, no snag, - right at that personal limit where it's large, but people-friendly enough to use.

It's actually not all size, either. I have smaller knives than that, that look more "tactical", and scarier - my Janich-Wharncliffe Endura, for example, or my all-black-everything Yojumbo. Great pocket knife, great knife to rely on, but it looks scary. The Yojimbo 2 may be more people-friendly once I dye it from tan to burgundy. It also has lightened my load by being one of the rare knives that can "do-it-all". Of course, I always have a SAK or Leatherman, still intend to carry other knives, for fun, smaller ones sometimes, dressier ones sometimes, ones to fit a specific task (Shaman if I need a tough folder, Dodo/Cricket if I am anticipating slicing a bunch of fibrous material) but the Polce 4 + SAK combo has really done something to me.

Only time I've been going out in a while carrying just one dedicated knife and a SAK!

 

[toker]

Go get a pistol permit in CA. Due to the Bruen ruling, it should be much easier to get one. That's a better SD weapon than a knife in every way.

 

[Hashishiin]

Go get a pistol permit in CA. Due to the Bruen ruling, it should be much easier to get one. That's a better SD weapon than a knife in every way.

Ultimately, this is what's preferable. I like to be able to have as many tools in the toolbox as I can, while still being on the right side of the law.

Not to say I want to walk around like this...

https://imgur.com/a/4UGDI2k

or this...

https://imgur.com/a/3y0F02U

But I feel like that permit, continued practice, continued carry of spray, sensible knife carry, continued following of the "rules of stupid", and some physical empty-handed martial arts training would give me the most edge against a real encounter. What really worried me a couple years back when I started to become conscious of this kind of thing, was that I was only alive and unscathed through the "mercy" of my attackers, and that kind of insecurity creates paranoia. I find that ability and know-how are the antithesis of paranoia.

(That first guy, though, what in the world is he thinking?! I saw a pic of a man looking equally silly at the Target snack section with an AK on his back, but at least that is one long-gun, that you can more easily control than four pistols. He looks old enough to know better, but I hear this experience does not come with age, you have it or do not. I have seen videos warning about keeping your heat in a secured position, one woman had her pistol yanked out of her pants by a few thugs who noticed it poking out of her pants. This guy, I have no idea what he'd do if four teens ran up on him from behind... I mean, has he not heard of a coat? I've been wearing leather these days, just because I like my jacket. I don't need to conceal even one of those as the current case is.)

 

[dryflytrout]

In my state (pa) knucks are illegal. I'm not aware of any case law reaching a decision on retention rings. It's up to the cop and which side of the bed he woke up on, or if he likes my personality. Any knives with any kind of ring are an automatic pass for me.

 

[James Y]

Ultimately, this is what's preferable. I like to be able to have as many tools in the toolbox as I can, while still being on the right side of the law.

Not to say I want to walk around like this...

https://imgur.com/a/4UGDI2k

or this...

https://imgur.com/a/3y0F02U

But I feel like that permit, continued practice, continued carry of spray, sensible knife carry, continued following of the "rules of stupid", and some physical empty-handed martial arts training would give me the most edge against a real encounter. What really worried me a couple years back when I started to become conscious of this kind of thing, was that I was only alive and unscathed through the "mercy" of my attackers, and that kind of insecurity creates paranoia. I find that ability and know-how are the antithesis of paranoia.

(That first guy, though, what in the world is he thinking?! I saw a pic of a man looking equally silly at the Target snack section with an AK on his back, but at least that is one long-gun, that you can more easily control than four pistols. He looks old enough to know better, but I hear this experience does not come with age, you have it or do not. I have seen videos warning about keeping your heat in a secured position, one woman had her pistol yanked out of her pants by a few thugs who noticed it poking out of her pants. This guy, I have no idea what he'd do if four teens ran up on him from behind... I mean, has he not heard of a coat? I've been wearing leather these days, just because I like my jacket. I don't need to conceal even one of those as the current case is.)

Unfortunately, there are some people who feel the need to be in-your-face about their right to carry, and therefore overcompensate. Or perhaps are paranoid. Which makes those who are all for discreet legal carry look like a bunch of paranoid wackos, by association.

It's the same with some of the more militant knife people, who whip open their knives with a dramatic flourish for all to see, regardless of where they are or who is around and say, "It's my right to carry a knife and do what I want with it, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can go *BLEEP-BLEEP*." They make ALL knife carriers look like more of a liability than an asset. They themselves are more of a liability to what they claim to be supporting.

Jim

 

[Drop bear]

Yes, I have been slowly coming to the conclusion since I posted this, that since I would very often EDC that Matriarch 2 specifically for emergency use, if anything ever did happen, that's what I would have to defend my actions with. You will use what you carry - while this knife is not ILLEGAL, there are aspects like the potental prosecutor's quote that can make it look worse for me, therefore I should consider being smarter about my carry.

I'm coming to the realization that I should worry more about what is thought of what I carry if a day comes where I must, God forbid, defend myself, not what is thought in some unlikely stop under peaceful circumstances (I don't drink, fight, or hang around places where that stuff happens).

Since giving this thread some thought when I posted it, I've switched to carrying the serrated Police 4 K390 when I'd normally carry my Matriarch 2 (albeit kept my wave) instead, and have not felt under-knifed, not to mention what a great knife that is to actually use, amazing serration pattern, no snag, - right at that personal limit where it's large, but people-friendly enough to use.

It's actually not all size, either. I have smaller knives than that, that look more "tactical", and scarier - my Janich-Wharncliffe Endura, for example, or my all-black-everything Yojumbo. Great pocket knife, great knife to rely on, but it looks scary. The Yojimbo 2 may be more people-friendly once I dye it from tan to burgundy. It also has lightened my load by being one of the rare knives that can "do-it-all". Of course, I always have a SAK or Leatherman, still intend to carry other knives, for fun, smaller ones sometimes, dressier ones sometimes, ones to fit a specific task (Shaman if I need a tough folder, Dodo/Cricket if I am anticipating slicing a bunch of fibrous material) but the Polce 4 + SAK combo has really done something to me.

Only time I've been going out in a while carrying just one dedicated knife and a SAK!

The other thing is I don't know if defensive knives are really any more defensive. Especially things like rings.

They seem to be used for a lot of ideas that will basically never happen.

I look at the Doug Marciada stuff very suspiciously. Thinking that the training time used to be good at that could be better used to have very good timing and very simple concepts.

 

[Hashishiin]

In my state (pa) knucks are illegal. I'm not aware of any case law reaching a decision on retention rings. It's up to the cop and which side of the bed he woke up on, or if he likes my personality. Any knives with any kind of ring are an automatic pass for me.

This is the conclusion I came to. I've been carrying the pictured Police 4 with the wave ever since I started this thread (and coinciding with the arrival of said Police 4). It is just safer. I still love my Matriarch 2, and I'm keeping it, for fun, to give to a woman, to prune some plants with, heck. But, I no longer risk this ring as part of my EDC. The Ma2 was truly an EDC'd knife too.

The other thing is I don't know if defensive knives are really any more defensive. Especially things like rings.

They seem to be used for a lot of ideas that will basically never happen.

I look at the Doug Marciada stuff very suspiciously. Thinking that the training time used to be good at that could be better used to have very good timing and very simple concepts.

I agree and disagree with you here. I definitely used to be of the opinion that you needed something huge, crazy, whatever, to be effective. Espada XL was a dream to me for this reason. But now, without even a whole lot more experience, feel that 3" of blade would be adequate, and it's more important that the thing is drawn and in my hands, than if it's a clip or a straight-spine Talwar or Espada XL.

That's why I'm saying, the ring was more for speed-draw and non-lethal striking. Punching/hitting - it's a very likely occurrence in a self-defense situation. I did not have any insane illusions about ninja-flipping stuff, but for one basic "bring it around" move if the hand is grabbed, actually learned from a Marcaida video I think. No flash to it. I'd sit and practice while watching TV, and just became quite good at it. I'd do my best to simulate adrenaline by doing this when under low-level panic, making the panic work for me instead of other way around.

Some designs are really good, though. This "Reverse-S" drags itself into materials like a claw, it really is a wonder to cut with, especially if you have something large and soft to just attack, this will open your eyes to what it can do. I would take the Pepsi challenge, man, I could pull that thing one fingered on my back. But... you know, there's something to be said for the AR-15 too, but that doesn't mean I would walk around with one of those things slung on my back, either...

But... as I said above, I don't want to be the case-law if some John Q. starts sticking his snout around my business. Police 4 is fine by me. I feel I have 80% of the defensive capability of that knife.

So, I don't think a CS Voyager over a Vaquero, say, gives a one-up in self-defense because of things like serrations and profiles (though boy, the tanto is wicked at slicing things in mid-air!). It's a knife in my hand when it's open, Voyager or Police 4.

 

[Hashishiin]

Unfortunately, there are some people who feel the need to be in-your-face about their right to carry, and therefore overcompensate. Or perhaps are paranoid. Which makes those who are all for discreet legal carry look like a bunch of paranoid wackos, by association.

It's the same with some of the more militant knife people, who whip open their knives with a dramatic flourish for all to see, regardless of where they are or who is around and say, "It's my right to carry a knife and do what I want with it, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can go *BLEEP-BLEEP*." They make ALL knife carriers look like more of a liability than an asset. They themselves are more of a liability to what they claim to be supporting.

Jim

Love this comment! I wish more people had this sense of tact, just because you can does not mean you should. To me, who does not have the privilege to walk around like this, they are sullying it in an immature way.

This part isn't exactly related to the law proper, but how you were talking about the people who harm their hobbies with their uncouth behavior...

Very tangentially related, but I skated, still skate a little, I always would be annoyed at the folks who would make stereotypes out of themselves when citizenry or police is concerned. Do they not realize these are the ones who vote for city laws that try to ban things like skating on the sidewalk, etc, that make the hobby much harder? The same concept applies here, you know, "loud and proud" but without concern to the effect they have on the populace.

I get not wanting to change yourself or what you look like or carry on you, wanting to be yourself, but there's a short supply of courtesy in this world, and if we can make our neighbor feel better while still being ourselves, why not do it? I HAVE the wave feature on my Police 4, but say something comes that my SAK can't handle, I open it like a slip-joint, or slow-roll it open if I'm around strangers. Simple things like that have kept me out of situations where other knife owners would fear " The Geneva Convention will come down on me if I dare to have a folder of that size!". Combination of pretty blue color of scales, bright and happy demeanor, clear intentions of why I'm pulling a knife out, and displayed responsibility go a long way.