Rookie wet forming question

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

Joined
Sep 28, 2005
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I need advice on wet forming leather sheaths. So far most of my experience has been in Kydex, or just simple pouch sheaths. Anything will help, from when to do it (after profiling right), how to size properly for the stretch, differences in stainless or carbon steel knives, blade protection (read- rust), materials......

Like I said rookie question and I am sure others have this question as well but are too shy to ask (I have no shame).;)
A tutorial perhaps?
 
I'm also a rookie, but will tell you how I do it at least.

I make my pattern, cut, dye, glue up, trim and slick edges, stitch it, then wet the sheath, insert the knife and form it by hand and with the help of whatever appropriately shaped wood handles of my tools I have lying around. I usually put a layer or two of oil and a layer or two of seran wrap on my carbon knives to protect from rust. I've never had one rust though because I usually only leave it in the wet sheath for a little bit. After that I let the sheath dry completely and then put whatever finish I'm using on it.

Hope this helps until the experts show up. This is just what has been working for me.
 
CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
I need advice on wet forming leather sheaths. So far most of my experience has been in Kydex, or just simple pouch sheaths. Anything will help, from when to do it (after profiling right), how to size properly for the stretch, differences in stainless or carbon steel knives, blade protection (read- rust), materials......

Like I said rookie question and I am sure others have this question as well but are too shy to ask (I have no shame).;)
A tutorial perhaps?
Click to expand...

I'm not what I call an expert but I hope this helps
http://www.knivesby.com/dan-sheath-tutor-1.html
I rouph it out first then mold it, it gives me more control in the end.
that link is located here
http://www.knivesby.com/knifemaking.html :)
many times I'll just mold them by hand .. instead of using the PVC press
 
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Dan Gray said:
I'm not what I call an expert but I hope this helps
http://www.knivesby.com/dan-sheath-tutor-1.html
I rouph it out first then mold it, it gives me more control in the end.
that link is located here
http://www.knivesby.com/knifemaking.html :)
many times I'll just mold them by hand .. instead of using the PVC press
Click to expand...

I do the wetmolding of halftanned before construction too, for the same reasons.
The first wet mold defines the shape of the sheath. and the second one makes the excact fit, which after controled drying can be fixated using paint and wax.

the shape of the sheath is very important in how wet you are going to make things. For organic shapes it's good to saturate the leather completely, but the drying is a bitch. During the first 2 to 3 hours of drying you constantly need to work the leather, to massage the shrinkage out, apply heat on certain points (to keep shrinkage on the inside on par with the shrinkage on the outside) en define and fixate the shape.

For straight sheaths, only a little wetting suffices. It makes the rest of the process a lot easier, since there's almost no shrinkage.

the process of wetting and drying a couple a times gives a long lasting shape that keeps its memory excellent, after proper treatment.

my 2 cts
but I ain't no pro either

have a nice day!
martin
 
Wet fitting leather is all about preparing the leather... too wet and it just stretches, too dry and it doesn't form.

It has to be PERFECT in order to really take the molding.

Treat the leather just like you were going to be carving it.

Here's how I learned to do it.

Dunk the sheath in warm water.... that's right I said DUNK it. Keep it in the water for a while, actually until it doesn't absorb any water.

At this point the leather is wet but it's not soft. Water is between the fibers of the leather, you need the leather to be soft not just wet.

Take the soaked sheath and put it in a zip lock bag and seal it overnight.

While the sheath is sitting, the water is getting more deeply into the fibers of the leather, the fibers will take on the water and will become almost like clay.

Before you're ready to start molding the sheath, take it out of the bag and leave it sit in a warm, NOT HOT area until the leather appears to be dried. The surface will go back to the original color but will feel cool to the touch... this is referred to as "Cased".

Cased leather is what you need to have to properly wet form.

The knife you're fitting into the sheath needs to be protected from the wet leather, a coating of neatsfoot oil works for me, it keeps the water off the steel and is good for the leather.

A spoon is a terrific boning tool, I have an old one that I polished mirror smooth. Use your fingers and the spoon to form the leather around the knife, the leather will be a lot like hot kydex with the advantage that its not going to stiffen up on you as you work it.

Once you get the fit the way you want it, take a 3x5 card and red marker, write the letters L I T F A as large as possible on the card and place it beside the sheath and hide the spoon.

L I T F A means Leave It The F#*k Alone. Most great wet fit jobs are ruined because someone keeps messing with it, do as the card says and it'll be perfect. When you continue messing with the leather you stretch it out and ruin the fit.

What you're trying accomplish is molding the leather, pushing it to shape and when it's cased it's like clay that will push into shape. As the leather dries you're pulling on the fibers rather than bending them and the fit ends up sloppy and loose.

Depending on how you dry the formed sheath you will end up with a pliable or very stiff sheath. Dry it fast and it'll be stiff; leave it dry slowly and it'll be pliable.

Be sure to give the sheath a good drink of neatsfoot oil when it's dry and you're ready to go.
 
wow, thanks a lot reidracer. that was a great step by step i cant wait to try. i always have sheaths that hold the knife, but are not as clearly formed to the knife shape as id like. -CB
 
Reidracer,

That is a very well written decription of how to mold leather. Very nicely written and easy to undertsand.

Welcome aboard and post more often. :D
 
reidracer

Thanks for your insights. I have a couple of questions..

Do you treat all kinds of leather the same?
that means, rawhide, halftanned and veggietanned?

How do you deal with the shrinkage?

I have very little experience with veggietanned,
In my experience rawhide needs the treatment you describe, It needs to be completely saturated otherwise it's very hard to form, and it will crack possibly. My halftanned stays under water for an hour max to become the putty you want to have.
Some need only 10 minutes, some need the full hour, and a bit warmer water..

I have no experience with neatsfoot oil, but read at Tandy's that it's meant not only to protect the leather, but also to soften it. That doesn't sound like the ideal finish to me.. What kind of neatsfoot do you use?

Thanks for your time
martin
 
mrrrtn said:
reidracer

I have no experience with neatsfoot oil, but read at Tandy's that it's meant not only to protect the leather, but also to soften it. That doesn't sound like the ideal finish to me.. What kind of neatsfoot do you use?

Thanks for your time
martin
Click to expand...

This is the reason I do not use it on my sheaths ..

reidracer very nice write and info..
though not as I do it, time wise , it's close other wise as I do.
the difference with mine are
I soak in hot tap water in the sink and keep it hot running at about 135 F,
( no chemicals in my water, I have well water) , then go by the feel, working the leather some to let the water into it the leather will let me know when it's ready. this keeps me from having to wait a day on this part.

I protect the knife with plastic sandwich wrap, I do not want any oils IN my sheath leather the harder it ends up once dry the better for me ... the surface finish can be treated many different ways.. as well as the inside with-out compromising the structure we so work hard to get..

I'll never say this is the way to do it but just the way I do it so I'm
just adding more to my 2 cents worth. BTW I'm only taking Veggie taned here..
 
Reidracer communicated the steps to perfection. I have learned to wait for the leather to take on the "like clay" feel for molding. Lacking patience I usually just soak 1/2-1 hour and then wait for the leather to dry to "clay".

Several have mentioned covering the blade while forming. It is a critical step as is using only vegetable tanned leather. I've experienced pitting on polished 1095 left overnight in a drying sheath.
 
Thanks all...

I assumed we were talking about veg tanned leather because that's what 99% of leather sheaths are made of, I forgot about rawhide.

As for neatsfoot oil: It's the oil from the feet (not hooves) and shin bones of cattle so it's as close to the natural oil found in (cow) leather as you can get. On production sheaths it's Fiebings or Zack White Neatsfoot Oil Compound, on customs I'll use Prime Neatsfoot Oil

I don't want my sheaths to be rock hard, from my limited knowledge base, rock hard is what leather becomes when it's dried out followed closely by crumbling. That's my opinion and I'm sure that some of you prefer leather to be stiff.

I make 200 + sheaths a week and my customers want sheaths that are firm and supple (sounds like the girls I used to chase... :):):) ) We don't do much wet forming on the production sheaths, just not enough time to spend casing, forming and drying.

For us it's click and prep parts, glue and then sew before finishing and shipping.

The few customs I build may be wet formed and that's where I spend the time following the process I explained.

I'm trying a different molding technique for the next wet formed sheath I do... since I have Kydex Presses sitting in the shop I'm thinking about crossing technologies. I'll let ya'll know if it works out.
 
reidracer said:
As for neatsfoot oil: It's the oil from the feet (not hooves) and shin bones of cattle so it's as close to the natural oil found in (cow) leather as you can get.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I never gave a thought to where neatsfoot oil was actually derived. Thanks!
 
a couple reasons and more input to why I don't use neat's-foot, you guys are looking for information for do's and don't and maybe the better ways to do things, you'll make your choices dependant of what works for you and your reasons in the end to do what you will do,

first, I'm not trying for a pissing contest here, I only post/ed just for food for thought and I do not lay claim to the only way to do things, there is always more than one road to a right destination..
with that said, in addition to my one of a kinds
I also make the old time marbles reproduction sheaths marbles reproductions how many I make won't make me right in the way I do things so there is no reason to mention that.
which btw these Marble repro's had/has no welt in them, as that was the way they were made By Marbles for years, was Marbles right in making them that way? personally I believe no but that's me, I make them that way only because they are reproduction to the old marbles for marble knife collectors.. anyway
oiling leather ?
veggie tanned is just what it says
the leather is not as it were on the cow as soon as it's been tanned, tanned leather is totally chemically altered and no longer cowhide so do you treat it as you would alive? maybe? though
I wouldn't hesitate using it on tack leather where you want most of those leathers some what supple,, heck I use it on my leather boots too.. buty not on sheaths for me..
this brings me to my reasons leaning towards a harder sheath/ leather. BUT not brittle and falling apart as you may think they would be, with what's been mentioned earlier, as I said you can finish your sheaths and protect them and still have them last for years, I've not had one complaint with mine so far knock on wood, if I need luck to work for me..:) ....

a lady came into the shop one day years ago to pickup a knife and sheath combo I had made for her husband, she took the knife out of the sheath to look at it and then put the knife back into sheath it didn't even hardly slow down as she caught the tip of the knife in the leather driving the knife though and out the back of the sheath, how she didn't cut the he!! out of herself is beyond me , that bothered me a lot, needless to say.

the sheaths I make are of at lease 10-12 oz most of the time, and I do want them stiff
not like a brick but so they will retain it's shape reasonably well, remember
the only thing between you and a good sharp edge is that leather and a welt.. but keep in mind I'm a knife maker not a sheath maker.. but happen to make sheaths. :eek:
 
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If I had a finished production sheath could I still wet mold it to the specific knife that I will use the sheath for? This is a relatively generic fold over sheath with a welt. ( It's probably one of Dwayne's)
 
a generic fold over sheath with a welt used for a pouch sheath ? I'll bite.
it depends on how good a fit you are looking for and if the sheath was made that way to do so in the first place. is it a universal fit all sheath :confused:
if the sheath is just the right under size in girth and the knife the right size to match the inside of the sheath to make it possible for the right form, maybe, but things would have to mate up pretty good in the first place I'd say for it to be right....
the best thing to do in most cases if it's a knife that a maker does not have for a pattern is to use yours and custom fit it to a new sheath made for your knife..
also what's the new sheath treated with ? that could be a problem in molding it to start with, some guys use a bees wax dip that would be a problem.....:)
 
mhawg said:
If I had a finished production sheath could I still wet mold it to the specific knife that I will use the sheath for? This is a relatively generic fold over sheath with a welt. ( It's probably one of Dwayne's)
Click to expand...

Might be one of mine, is is a light colored tan or black and from the Company Store? If its one of mine then yes you can wet mold it. Skunk has a boned thread in the Busse forum where he has wet molded and boned several. Skunk is good at boning evidently. ;)

The sheaths are treated with Fiebings "Leather Balm with Atom Wax" on the outside and gum tragacanth on the inside. :) So water will not harm it, just let it dry slowly at room temp, or outside in the sun for a little bit to quick harden it.

those sheaths were intended to fit the Game Warden, Active Duty, and Meaner Street. Dunno if it will fit much else but its worth a shot eh?
 
leatherman said:
...those sheaths were intended to fit the Game Warden, Active Duty, and Meaner Street. Dunno if it will fit much else but its worth a shot eh?
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm trying to snug up one on a new BAD. The sheath works fine now I just want to shape it a bit. Thanks.
 
reidracer---------If you are making 200+ sheaths a week you could hardly be referred to as a custom maker. Could we know more about you, your business, photos of your work and contact information?
 
For what its worth,because I haven't made too many sheaths myself:p.I lay the knife on the leather draw around -leaving about 3/8" extra,then flip the knife over and do the same on the other side.I glue the belt loop,stitch,glue up the welt,fold and stitch,this is a pouch style by the way.Where I differ is I put the knife in and wet using acetone:confused:,uh huh,and shape with my fingers,the acetone dries very fast and from what iv'e read won't hurt the leather----Butch
 
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