salt pot supplies

Dan Gray said:
Salt pot buildIf we can get a play by play build...
Click to expand...

Dan, I think most makers avoid the blow by blow, because they don't need the liability. I know that I avoided it on my site for those reasons. I gave enough information for a person to understand how it all works and to get the supplies, but they would still need to do the research required to understand the things.

Why? Because salts are incredibly powerful tools, but if not respected, at all times, they can kill you, or make you wish they had! Now before we get the usual poo pooing that those of us that have seen the beast are Chicken Littles, between my setup and Mr. Zowada's I have been working with salts long before most knifemakers knew what they were, and I have my horror stories. I have seen a high temp tube literally turn into a cannon, shooting 1400F liquid grape shot, anybody is welcome to come for a visit and see the scorched blast pattern on the ceiling of my shop, 14" above the tubes (and that one was not necessarily my fault). Sorry, salts are not on par with a grabby buffing wheel.

Believe me I am no safety Nazi, I get more irritated than most at the neurotics that want us to put on safety glasses before clipping our toenails, I seldom wear a respirator when I should, and I like to play with fire in rather foolish ways, I am happy to be either a fool or a daredevil in many aspects of shop practice.

I am not trying to talk anybody out of anything, I highly recommend the salts for anybody who wants precise heat-treating control, but with the recommendation I have a responsibility to advise the caution and respect due. If I do all of this, and let folks do their own final research and building, my conscience is free of the results.

I did not post this to restart any debate on this topic, but to explain why I personally am hesitant to tell exactly how to build a salt bath. You will also notice a distinct absence of anything ready-to-use, less than huge industrial units, out there.

As per the cliche, I would get off the soapbox now, but I reserve the right to remount it should somebody subsequently suggest that a face full of 1500F. corrosive salts is nothing to worry about.
 
Thanks Kevin
well said, I sure understand your concerns for liability and that is your call and with-in your rights,

Mr. Zowada's turn key unit may have or should have the same concerns (lack of study by users of his unit )
in the dangers of the salts them selves once heated and I'm sure that is his call for liability..

I would just hate to see guys hooking things up wrong and because of a lack of information causing self injury as in the unit it self being set up wrong.

you know how us knife makers are... if it can be built..
 
Thanks Tony, shows a good pot design, thats what I had in mine. What I was really needing was the gas line parts, pyrometer parts and how to assemble control unit, so the heat can be controlled.

Good site, thanks again.

Bill
 
Best to start small. Salt pots are dangerous but if you build a little one first you can learn allot and not spend much money. I still like my weed burner idea and manually adjust the temp instead of using an expensive controller and selenoid. If we were doing allot of blades at once it would be worth the time and money.
 
Bruce how accurate in heat +/- can you hold the salts without the controller. I'm like you, 1 maybe 2 blades a week is all I would use it for, I have an old vertical forge and the burner setup to where it blows in the bottom/back when its horrizontial, so all I would need would be the SS pipe, thermocoupler/pyrometer and salts but I was afraid I couldn't control the heat close enough without the controller and solenoid.

Bill
 
Dan Gray said:
...I would just hate to see guys hooking things up wrong and because of a lack of information causing self injury as in the unit it self being set up wrong.

you know how us knife makers are... if it can be built..
Click to expand...

That is what threads like this a great for, helping folks get the correct parts. No harm in recommending thermocouplers or controllers, some relays and solenoid valves are better than others also.

I just know that I don't have the safest setup possible tos I would hate to steer anybody wrong. That is why I am interested in the ignitor part that Darren mentioned, that is one really good safety feature that everybody could benefit from. As I mentioned in my previous post, I am a bit of a dunderhead when it comes to safety and I have lifted the top off my gas unit more times thatn I can count so a safe and affective method of igniting that gas sounds great to me ;)
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
That is why I am interested in the ignitor part that Darren mentioned, that is one really good safety feature that everybody could benefit from.
Click to expand...

Hi Kevin, I'm not quite sure what to say about them...they're a standard item on industrial furnaces. On a system like we build, put them in parallel (electrically) with the blower and NC solenoid valve that modulates the gas flow by the controller. This just takes care of one failure mode possible. Many rely on the ignition temperature of propane to take care of things, but this adds a layer of safety in the system. You could also put a UV detector in there as well, but then we could just get silly with the whole affair... :) ...basically if you're building salt pots and going to *automate* them, be sure to be vigilant about safety, if the hot salts don't maim or kill you due to a mistake or being cavalier with them, you don't want a propane explosion to do it!

For those looking for a drawing with part details, if nobody who attended Harley's hammer-in earlier this Spring chimes in, someone should contact Jim to see if he will send someone the info to post.

:)

-Darren
 
Darren Ellis said:
... On a system like we build, put them in parallel (electrically) with the blower and NC solenoid valve that modulates the gas flow by the controller...
-Darren
Click to expand...


This is one bit that I was interested in. With the type of burner nozzle that I am fond of, putting the ingnition source behind the outlet causes problems with backfire, yet it would be quite bad for the igniter to put it in front of the exit hole. So I have been relying on the heat of the high temp pots to reignite the gas. This works fine as long as you are at the higher temps, but... ;)

At this time I am toying with the idea of running a small bypass from the gas line and making a little pilot light to go into the burner chamber.

The transformers on the Dongan page look an awful lot like the "franceformers" used on oil furnaces, does this mean that you make metallic electrodes to go in front of the nozzle like those furnaces or is there an ignitor that is on the market that they hook to?

If a person wanted to really help out the knifemaking folks and be very popular in the process, they would figure out a way to offer 5" 316L tubes, welded up and ready to go for less than a second mortgage :( Working with gas this is beyond a doubt the most expensive part of the apparatus.
 
Kevin
is 5" Id 316L x 1/4 seamless wall tubes the best choice? :confused:

what are the prices you are seeing?
I just ordered some pricing...on the above

gee gads is there Gold in there some where ,,
I see what you mean Kevin

$487.20 for 4' :eek: the plate 1/4" x 6" by 12' yeahup 12 feet $263.94

I just looked at my postings that have gone over 3,000 I wish I could turn that time into gold :D
 
All I need is to order up some Inslwool, ITC-100 and salts. Maybe I can get it done before the HI. :D
 
Dan Gray said:
Kevin
is 5" Id 316L x 1/4 seamless wall tubes the best choice? :confused:

what are the prices you are seeing?
I just ordered some pricing...on the above

gee gads is there Gold in there some where ,,
I see what you mean Kevin

$487.20 for 4' :eek: the plate 1/4" x 6" by 12' yeahup 12 feet $263.94

I just looked at my postings that have gone over 3,000 I wish I could turn that time into gold :D
Click to expand...

Dan, I don't know if there is another material that some folks have gotten lucky and had it work, but I have had the WORST luck with tubes and have found the 316L to be the only thing that was fool proof (until recently when this fool managed to find a way :( ) . I have a 2 foot tube and a 4 foot tube both are 5/16" wall thickness. You can understand why I would not want to replace them any time soon. :eek:
 
time to jump in on the post. i ordered an omega 76000 series controller, to run a high temp pot but i don't know what thermocouple or solenoid to order to accompany it. i know to buy a K type thermocouple but are there different types? or different qualities i should look for? i'm dying to get this thing up and running. i might as well do it soon instead of sending out all my blades for HT. its the only thing holding me back on finishing them. its too expensive to have it done by someone else.
i'm planning on using an "indian george" style burner like shown on the elliscustomknifeworks.com web site. any precautions? when running a temp controlled system?
thanks
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
any precautions? when running a temp controlled system?
thanks
Click to expand...

Mike the few things other than the obvious things with that type of temperature that come to mind is
moisture (a lack of it,zero amount ) and use a tapered rod to create a hole to the bottom of the salts
a pressure relief if you will, upon reheating the salts. if you don't it could make for a nice rocket launcher. :(

tip of the day for forgers and salt pot users
don't get your friendly home owner insurance agent into making knives if he holds your policy.. :eek:
 
Dan Gray said:
tip of the day for forgers and salt pot users
don't get your friendly home owner insurance agent into making knives if he holds your policy.. :eek:
Click to expand...

I have gone through that whole ordeal. Years ago I let it slip about what I did to our homeowners insurance agent. He was cool enough to only want to try to sell me extra business insurance. When I declined, he told me that if I was running a business in those out buildings the homeowners would not cover them. I told him that it was a hobby, "who could make a living making knives?" I asked him ;) . Then later I had reason to fear for fire, theft or vadalism to my shop, so I decided I needed some protection.

I thought I would shop around though, so I made a few phone calls. Virtually all of the calls abruptly ended when I mentioned a forge of any kind in the building. The 2 that stayed on the line hit me with a quote that felt like an anvil landing on me, those policies were obviously for major corporations.

Forges seem to scare them the most. Insurance agents have this picture in their mind of a huge blasting fireball three feet across and spitting molten metal in all directions. I tried to tell them that there was more uncontrolled fire in a fireplace than a forge, but they just didn't get it. As long as they were distracted by the nuclear reactor the we call a forge, I doubt they would even pay attention to something called a "salt bath", unless, like Dan said, you were foolish enough to get them into the hobby ;) .
 
ok i checked out the link on the salt pots.
so the tapered metal rod is put into the molsten salts. then canbe removed once cooled? or do you leave it in while you heat the salt pot up again?
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
ok i checked out the link on the salt pots.
so the tapered metal rod is put into the molsten salts. then canbe removed once cooled? or do you leave it in while you heat the salt pot up again?
Click to expand...

:eek: take it out Mike take it out :eek:
I'll bet that would make a nice projectile.. :(
it's tapered so you can get it out,,, you may have to rap it with a hammer.

if the salts liquefy on bottom before the rest you'll get pressure
you'll get more than poo in the face..:eek: the hole
you've made with the rod will keep that from happening..
 
so the tapered rod reaches to the bottom of the pot obviously...... hmmm maybe i can talk IG into getting his set up before the hammer-in so we can have that for the HT demo. :)
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
so the tapered rod reaches to the bottom of the pot obviously...... hmmm maybe i can talk IG into getting his set up before the hammer-in so we can have that for the HT demo. :)
Click to expand...

you got it now.. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top