Sandvik 12C27 steel

Ugh, I really hate these kind of topics, too, (you know what I'm talking about, Frank--if you're even reading this thread) but it relates heavily to a knife and its performance expectations and applications--so no comments about heat treatment, how inferior it is to the CPM flavor of the month, or questions as to why I even mention this steel.

That outta the way, I'd like your opinions on these three things: Edge holding, hardness/flexibility, and corrosion resistance. I know it's supposed to be stainless, and that's why I bought a knife w/ that steel from none other than our moderator Mr. Mattis. But, how stainless is it? Let's use ATS-34 as the basis for your comparison, since that's the steel on my daily carry.

The reason why I'm asking is b/c I plan on doing a mini-review on a Frosts of Sweden Mora Clipper that I'll be taking on a camping trip w/ me this weekend down along the coast. No snickers, b/c I'll laugh at you when you drop your Sebenza/Busse/Simonich in the woods and you start to cry.
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Won't be missing a $15 knife, unless it does such a good job that I get attached to it!
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Anyway, what should I expect (don't say "not much for a $15 knife!) of this steel? I'll mainly be doing food prep, maybe some cord cutting, and anything minor that it needs to be used for. No, I'm not going to bend it 60 degrees, throw it into a tree, or test the tang's strength. I just want to know if I should expect 420J2 or a good batch of AUS-6 (I'm not expecting ATS-34 at $15). I know that Outdoor Edge uses 12C27 for their Krait knife, so anyone who owns one, please chime in. Finally, if the steel/knife rises above the general expectation level set by you, my peers, I'll let you guys know!

Thanks in advance.
 
A

AJohansson

Joined
Dec 16, 1998
Messages
107
Hi Thrawn , perhaps I can give some help on the Sandvik 12C27 . In some American knife magazines the 12C27 is compared with 440A .
It is the main steel for several factory knives in Sweden .(Frost , Eriksson etc.)In Sweden we don´t refeer to 12C27 as a stainless steel , more like stain-resistant because it contains 12 % of chromium . The edge holding is in no way like ATS-34 but it is easy to sharpen and as a cheap and good utility knife steel it is OK . As you said it is a cheap knife and if you lose or break it you want cry your heart out ! If you try to bend it it will break ! But use it as you said and I think that you will like it .
Best wishes
Anders Johansson , Custom knifemaker , Sweden at http://www.scrimart.u.se

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I've got no direct experience with this steel, yet. I've got a 2 foot (by 2.5") bar sitting in my shop waiting for me. I bought it because several of the local guys use it (mostly on knives for the commercial meat cutting industry, I'm told).

It was cheaper than the ATS-34 I bought, but not by much. In fact, I'm not sure if I can still get it from that particular supplier/maker anymore (Del Corsi). (I should call and get some more stuff from him, come to think of it).

From what I understand, it's very much like ATS-34 in performance, not quite, but close.

As for the Frost stuff. I think they are great knives for the money. I have a few that I use in the shop from woodworking and leather working stuff and they seem to take and hold an edge well...oops, maybe I'm thinking of the carbon laminated steel ones...

Darren
 
Thanks, you guys. It's interesting that it will bust if you bend it. Thanks for the comparison, Anders. If it's like 440A in your opinion, then it's a pretty good knife steel, I'd wager. Scooter, I'm glad you've got some experience w/ the Frosts knives, especially in utility applications. The fact that you've had no complaints makes me happy. Kinda like ATS-34, eh? Oh wait, you were thinking that maybe that was the laminated carbon ones. Oh well, they're so inexpensive that I could get both versions.
 
The make-up of 12C27 is similar to 440-A, especially in regards to the amount of carbon. HOwever, the steel is rumored to be incredibly pure, and a number of knifemakers swear that with proper heat treatment, 12C27 provides substantial performance gain over 440A. I haven't compared carefully enough to have a strong opinion either way, but some very good knifemakers claim it to be true.
 
I have a Next Generation Kabar in 12C27 which easily shaves hair. My SOG Seal Pup was only scraping sharp out of the box. However, the 440A SOG never rusts even after multiple dives without cleaning.

 
Maybe we can get Darrel Ralph to comment, his "implulse" (production krait) from outdoor edge is in 12C27. It is a better steel than 440a, closer to 440c I would think. I have an old Benchmade balisong that uses this steel and it's a fine knife. Dulls quicker than the new steels, but still very good. In fact in production knives I like it better than ATS34. In custom's the extra care a maker put's into get's every bit from a steel. Production however, the steels intrinsic qualitys are more important I believe.

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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum


 
I have a Frosts of Sweden knife of 12C27. It takes a very sharp edge (some call it a razor blade steel), but Frosts does not heat treat it to be very hard. I think Outdoor Edge gets 12C27 alloy up to 57 RC, while I estimate the Frosts blade to be more like 54-55 RC. An ATS-34 blade is likely to be 60 RC.

I did a test where I used the knife to remove meat from long beef ribs. It worked great. The design (mine is the really cheap military survival model) was great for the job. It was better contoured for the job than the Buck Vanguards I was comparing it against. Then I started chopping on the edge of the bare rib bones with the knives. The 12C27 blade and a Vanguard with 420HC alloy blade coated with Zirconium Nitride both dinged significantly. It was easy to restore the 12C27 using a steel and a hone. The Buckcote blade will need to go to the factory to be fully restored. Part of the problem with the Buckcote blade is that the final bevel is chisel ground and is therefore weak on one side. With very heavy steeling and some honing I got it back into working shape, but you can still see where it was dinged.

I also tried the above using a Buck Vanguard Master Series with BG-42 blade. This steel is very sharp and tough. It was as sharp as the 12C27, but much tougher. It is probably 61 RC or so. It chopped into the rib bones with no damage at all. You get what you pay for. The 12C27 blade cost less than $10.00 on the internet while the BG-42 blade cost around $175.00. I'm going to retire the buckcote blade.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 03-08-2000).]
 
The NEW Benchmade Balisongs will have that steel for the blade. I called them up on this and it was sort of determined by a Butterfly Guru that works there, Les told him to make his ideal butterfly knife and that was what he came up with, the steel is supposed to be a fairly tough steel and withstands shock well?

I'm looking forward to getting one as soon as they are available. The handles on those are cast titanium, a light version to be sure, but heck it's a bali-song!

G2

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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...


G2 LeatherWorks
 
There are lots of excellent steels out there. Sandvick 12C27 is soft enough in the annealed state to stamp out well with machines. I think it is being chosen for cheap fabrication rather than superlative properties.
 
Jeff Clark, you may be right on that score, perhaps the fellow was given free reign but only within a certain dollar value? I was told that the earlier production butterflys were using that steel, not the custom models.

I have thoughts of having a blade made for my handles once I get the knife! Or even make a blade my self, as I can do that, it's the handles that present a problem to me, so I envision a very nice market for custom blade makers to really make out in this deal, providing blades to our specs to fit the handles? Sounds good don't ya think?

G2
 
I was surprised to discover recently that Mastersmith PJ Tomes uses Sandvik 12C27 steel in his stock removal blades. Mr. Tomes makes user quality knives. He really wants them to be used hard. He told me that properly heat treated 12C27 is a fantastic steel. He prefers it to many other stock removal steels. That's good enough for me.

Paracelsus
 
I like 12C27 because it is so pure. When you sharpen it, it has a sort of silky feel. It takes a really sharp edge. I like the way it looks. Hardened up to 56-57 RC it works well. The Swedish knives are fully ground up to the edge with no secondary bevel. When you sharpen them you work on a 1/4"-1/2" surface. Having the steel soft is very practical.

I'm not saying that 12C27 is a bad steel, I just think a major element of its popularity with manufacturers is ease of fabrication. It is a very different material from ATS34 (which I don't much like).
 
12 c 27 is good steel if it is heat treated to its max performance.
The way I tell it to cut silicon carbide sandpaper disks with the steels I test.
This is a workout that few hold up to for a long time.
12 c IMHO and from the tests I have done... is in between the bg42,ats34,440c,154cm group and 440a steel in cutting tests I have done.
These are my findings. Others opinions may vary.


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New Web at www.darrelralph.com



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 03-09-2000).]
 
Here's what Bailey Bradshaw had to say in a recent post to the tkc-l list about 12C27 (posted with his permision):

I have used 12c27 for some time. It is definitely an upgrade from 440c,a or b. Many knife factories use 440a and c. The difference is mainly in the carbon content, which gives the steel more or less ability to harden and is easier to machine with lower carbon. Anyway, 440 has a high chromium content which makes it very stainless, but also makes it brittle and gives it larger
than optimum grain size. It aids in forming carbides, but there is more left over which is detrimental to the performance of the steel. 12c27 is a medium carbon steel, .6 %, but this is enough to sufficiently harden the blade to upwards of 62-63rc. The sandvic also has 13% chrome, just making the steel stainless, but not so much as to severely hinder the blades performance. The steel also has very fine grain structure, and that is it's best attribute. The smaller the grain, the tougher the steel will be while also being more wear resistant. Steels wear by the tearing away of grains singularly or in clumps called wear particles. This is obviously at the microscopic level. Larger grains tear away more easily due to it's increased size exerting more stress on it's boundary with neighboring grains. Like using a larger pry bar. Smaller grains have more boundary area for it's size, and is more apt to stay put. 12c27 doesn't form the high amount of carbides like the new cpm steels, but it is good in the wear resistant category, and is much more durable than most stainless cutlery steels. 440C, ATS-34 and 154CM can all be somewhat brittle in the higher Rockwell hardness range of 60-61. These steels need to be in this range for good wear resistance, so there is a question of trading one for the other, toughness or wear resistance. 12c27 I have found has better wear resistance than the other three, and at two to three points lower hardness. This obviously give the user a tougher blade. A good blade has high wear resistance, and some degree of toughness. 12c27 gives a better balance than 440C. I am not using it much anymore, as the cpm steels have filled the gap for me, but 12c27 is highly underrated, and makes a great blade.

Bailey
Click to expand...

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Kelly

SenatorsPlace.com
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice




[This message has been edited by Senator (edited 03-09-2000).]
 
I use a Frost's plastic handled fixed blade that cost me $6 about 10 years ago. We use it for backpacking food preparation and around salt water. No rusting problems, even opening coconuts, and it is quite tough. We have used it to split open coconuts with no damage. It is a bit soft, but easy to sharpen, similar to Victorinox pocketknives.
 
I have two Benchmade butterflies, a model 44 and a model 69, both in 12C27. One of them sharpens up like a dream, gets very sharp, and holds the edge acceptably for light utility. The other one I can't sharpen worth a darn. I assume this is probably an irregularity in Benchmade's heat treat. Irregardless, both are fine blades, for butterfly knives, and serve their purpose well.
 
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