School shootings....

Tballetta said:
Being armed at school will not stop these events from occuring. Being armed and present when one occurs is highly unlikely. I am a concealed weapon advocate but this is not the answer in this situation.

Awareness is the best defense.
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There is no preventative answer, short of police state tactics, to include mandatory forced treatment of anyone who exhibits the mildest of mental illness, random (or not so random) searches, and the like.

Our campuses are meant to be places of learning, and are open and uninhibited places. You could kiss that goodbye.

"Awareness" means nothing, unless perhaps to enhance your feelings of fear and impending doom when you become "aware" that your choice to be unarmed could well mean your death. The people who perpetrate these kinds of crimes rarely exhibit the kind of overt behavior that is severe enough to warrant engagement of LE prior to the shooting. They often show odd behavior, bothersome behavior, even bizarre behavior, but hardly ever anything that leads to jail or the like.

What is there to be aware of? Once the shooting starts, you will be one among many who are just victims, and you can only hope that SOMEONE ELSE will die rather than you.

Andy
 
I think in part it is the current culture we live in.

Part of the American psyche says that the only way that you solve problems is with force.

You can see it played out in some of the comments in this thread.:rolleyes:

We have Jack Bauer, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson et al who come in as one man with a gun and set the situation straight.

Now those guys are "good guys" not killing innocent civilans, but in the twisted mind of a mass killer he's the "good guy" the Davy Crockett going down with the Alamo.

This extends to our foreign policy where we refuse even to talk with our enemies and attack even when negotiations still hold some promise.

It also extends to our national philosophy which is personal responsibility and "I am not my brothers keeper" People who are poor, or down and out it's their fault and we shouldn't feel sorry for them. People who are laid off while the company records record profits? Just the way it is.

We have a really strong tradition of loving the bully and independance. Sometimes this means that nobody notices the person who is getting progressively more crazy. Sometimes people DO notice but the system is not set up for these people to be watched or helped.

I personally think people should be allowed to carry anywhere. Not that many of them would do it. On the other hand very few mass shootings have been stopped by an armed citizen. Does anybody know of any???

However I do think we need a shift in our national psyche as far as our thoughts on how we work out problems and deal with people who disagree with us, and we also need to much more fully develop our processes for screening people with a history of mental problems from being unable to get guns.

For instance I have a friend, world traveler no criminal and the background checks on his deer gun purchase took 2 weeks to go thru. On the other hand the VA tech shooter for instance was able to get his guns easily. I think the current system needs some tweaking.

Also under the idea of giving the mentally ill more rights we have cut back on a lot of laws that would allow people to be brought in for evaluation or kept involuntarily.

Just my 2c
 
To those who say awareness is not a necessity, ignorance must be bliss. Just let the media fill you in with all the pertinent details.:rolleyes:
Remember, we are still dealing with people, sometimes people that don't deserve to be amongst us, but they are still people. If you are aware of your surroundings and how to deal with situational threats, you are better equipped than another moron with gun and a grudge.
I've carried the majority of my life and will always defend the right to do so, but just because you can carry doesn't mean you should. If you are not aware of the threats and how to handle them, then you're not really qualified.
MLTHO.
 
On the other hand very few mass shootings have been stopped by an armed citizen. Does anybody know of any???
.
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Yes this one
At New Life Church in Colorado Springs the volunteer security guards did not prevent all casualties, but they did limit them and prevent the shooter's escape.
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There was also a case in Israel of a suicide bomber in a Grocery Store the that was shot by an armed citizen before he detonated the bomb and I am sure there are more.
 
As much as I advocate CCW for law-abiding mature citizens it doesn't really help Dan to much to tell him that carrying a gun would be the best answer since he can't legally carry one right now.

I definitely agree that it may be able to limit the number of lives hurt by having CCW on campuses, but as noted above it will definitely not stop things like this from happening. Campuses are such easy target that if everyone in the whole school was carrying tens of people could be shot before anyone realized what's even happening.....

Regardless of whether carrying a gun would be the best option since it's not legal right now and probably won't be anytime soon I find it irrelevant. On the other hand I do think that being aware and alert and having a way of escape is important. It's not that it's 100% satisfactory but with the laws the way they are that is the best choice for protecting yourself in this scenario. I still think advocating bullet proof doors with inside locks would be a good option to possibly limit the number of casualties, but the plain and simple fact of the matter is that in that kind of setting preventing all casualties is highly unlikely.....
 
Well, guess I did have something else of value to add :D

Here are a few that involve schools specifically. There are many more that are not school - related. Source is Wikipedia, which links back to primary sources.

January 2002, Appalachian School of Law, Armed citizen

On January 16, 2002, ASL Dean Anthony Sutin, Professor Thomas Blackwell, and 1L student Angela Dales were shot and killed by disgruntled student Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria. When Odighizuwa exited the building, he was subdued by two students armed with personal firearms. At trial, Odighizuwa was found mentally competent, pled guilty to the murders to avoid the death penalty, and was sentenced to multiple life terms in prison.[6]


1997, Corinth High School, Corinth, MS, Principal of the High School

On October 1, 1997, 16-year old Luke Woodham stabbed his mother to death. He then took a rifle to his school, Pearl High School. He shot and killed his ex-girlfriend and another student while maiming another seven. Six other boys were later arrested for allegedly conspiring with Luke in the school shooting, although all save one were cleared of all charges. The assistant principal of Pearl High, Joel Myrick, pulled a gun from his truck, intercepted Woodham and held him until police arrived.


hollowdweller said:
I personally think people should be allowed to carry anywhere. Not that many of them would do it. On the other hand very few mass shootings have been stopped by an armed citizen. Does anybody know of any???

Just my 2c
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mapper66 said:
Well, guess I did have something else of value to add :D

Here are a few that involve schools specifically. There are many more that are not school - related. Source is Wikipedia, which links back to primary sources.

January 2002, Appalachian School of Law, Armed citizen

On January 16, 2002, ASL Dean Anthony Sutin, Professor Thomas Blackwell, and 1L student Angela Dales were shot and killed by disgruntled student Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria. When Odighizuwa exited the building, he was subdued by two students armed with personal firearms. At trial, Odighizuwa was found mentally competent, pled guilty to the murders to avoid the death penalty, and was sentenced to multiple life terms in prison.[6]


1997, Corinth High School, Corinth, MS, Principal of the High School

On October 1, 1997, 16-year old Luke Woodham stabbed his mother to death. He then took a rifle to his school, Pearl High School. He shot and killed his ex-girlfriend and another student while maiming another seven. Six other boys were later arrested for allegedly conspiring with Luke in the school shooting, although all save one were cleared of all charges. The assistant principal of Pearl High, Joel Myrick, pulled a gun from his truck, intercepted Woodham and held him until police arrived.
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Well good deal at least there is a few incidences of it helping.
 
If I was a professor and couldn't carry what I would do would be to try to treat everyone with respect. Know a few personal things about them. Call them by their names. Try to talk to anyone flunking out and explain why and maybe ask if there's anything you can do.

Even just a little kindness can help.:thumbup:
 
hollowdweller said:
If I was a professor and couldn't carry what I would do would be to try to treat everyone with respect. Know a few personal things about them. Call them by their names. Try to talk to anyone flunking out and explain why and maybe ask if there's anything you can do.

Even just a little kindness can help.:thumbup:
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I am not a very good "people person", but when I started with our school district this was one thing we were trained in. Be kind, because one act of kindness can turn a kid around. I don't mean acting in a condoning manner when they are doing something wrong, but more to the point is acting like you actually care.
I'm very "old school" when it comes to discipline, but it has to be tempered with kindness.
When it comes to violence in our schools here, my coworkers and myself are in 0 tolerance mode. I personally feel our security should be better, but we do have LEOs in our Junior and Senior High Schools. It's a step in the right direction.
 
Short of imposing something like maximum security procedures, the ability of individuals to respond immediately with necessary force seems like the only answer. People need to recognize self defense as a fundamental right, and, as much as it's possible, a personal responsibility.
From what I've read, if someone had shot this guy–even tackled him–lives would have been saved.
 
DEKALB, Ill — The university gunman who shot and killed five students in a Northern Illinois University lecture hall and then killed himself had been acting erratic in the last few weeks since he stopped taking medicine for an undisclosed condition, police said
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OK so we have somebody with a mental condition who people knew had stopped taking his meds and was acting erratically and nobody did anything, about it.

Not my brothers keeper. When you see somebody going off like this people need to take action and report it.

Also we don't know what his condition was but it would be interesting to know how he got his guns and if he owned them legally why nobody in his family hid them.

One time my grandfathers neighbor was drinking a lot and fighting with his wife. One night he was in the front yard with a shotgun threatening her and my grandad went over to try to talk some sense to him. The guy started yelling at my grandad, put the loaded shotgun under my grandads chin and pulled the trigger.

And it went "click" because my grandad had become worried about his behavior and while he was at work his wife let my grandad remove the firing pins on all his guns:thumbup:

But that was back when people lived in neighborhoods for years and knew their neighbors ane there was a bit more community spirit and a bit less individualisim.
 
Update the guys guns were registered to him. He had no criminal record, but apparently he some sort of mental health issue.
 
Defense starts with community, not with a weapon. Saying hello to people, figuring out how they're doing, and when they're in distress will stop more shootings than carrying. This is not a process that starts with someone in crisis. It starts with a loving home when he or she is born, and embracing communities as they grow up. As a professor, you're getting pretty well-developed people with lots of quirks, and you have to work with that. You're also putting them in stressful positions - having to learn things that they'll soon use to get a job and build a good life. This stress isn't bad - you have to heat up steel and beat on it to make a hard blade - but the stress needs to be tempered with compassion and understanding.

You can't control all aspects of a person's life - family, friends, relationships, etc. - but you can offer a smile, a handshake, or a listening ear. Your classroom can be a safe place apart from whatever other messes they are dealing with. Even if you look at this cynically, helping someone to feel comfortable in your class may lead them to target another environment.

This may sound touchy-feely, but so what? It seems like there's a cultural pattern in school shootings - similar shooters with similar motives. This sounds like it demands a cultural solution.

I don't really have anything to add on the tactical issue, except a few opinions. Personally, I think licensed concealed carry should be broader. If you trust someone enough to let them carry, then they should be allowed to carry in schools, Walmart, etc. If they're not well trained and sensible enough to carry in crowded public places, then they shouldn't be carrying on the street either. Also, I think broader concealed carry would at least change the way pre-meditated shootings were carried out. It's a factor that makes things like Virginia Tech or NIU more difficult, and may deter some people. The others would likely choose a different time or place.

With regard to armed citizens stopping such incidents - there are a million things that I hope never happen to me. If some of them do, I'd rather be in a position to react as well as possible. (Though that means I should probably spend more time learning about investing and legal matters than firearm training. I'm much more likely to have an unfortunate financial or legal problem than I am to be in a gunfight). i.e. I'd rather be armed and never be in an incident, than unarmed in a shooting.

I'm skeptical of expanding involuntary detention and psychiatric mandates. There is a time, place, and person for such measures, but they are a serious invasion of personal liberty. As such, there should be a high bar for restricting personal rights on psychological grounds and a clear-cut procedure for having restrictions removed. Yes, I realize that may put more dangerous people on the streets than a highly restrictive policy.
 
I am a CWL holder in Miami, Florida. I am also a high school teacher. In the past 4 years, our school has begun to look more and more like a prison. There are now fences in places where there were none before, and most of the time--for people who are not faculty/staff--there is only one entrance into the school. (Although when the buses arrive in the morning, it's a free-for-all)

3 weeks ago I was in the copyroom during my planning period and one of the admin came on and announced a code-red. During a code-red the school gets locked down, ASAP. Teachers run to their doors, grab any students who might be directly outside, lock the doors from the outside, and direct students to move away from any doors and/or windows. (My door is always locked).

So here I am, locked down inside of the copy room with some other teacher. I am a law-abiding citizen with a CWL and some training, and I have NO recourse but to sit and wait, hoping that some armed nutjob does NOT blast open the copy-room door and put a few .223 rounds through myself and my cottony co-worker. I have never, since taking on the responsibility of becoming armed, felt so defenseless. I hope that had someone burst in I would have hit him with an industrial-grade toner cartridge, but how can I know?

Apparently, what happened was that an armed robbery was committed a few blocks from the school and as the perps fleed in the direction of the school, the local police called the admin and directed them to lock down (kudos to the po-pos).

As a high-school teacher, I am responsible, at any given moment, for at least 32 students, yet I have no means of defending them, only locking them away. Luckily, a few years back I had the presence of mind to get the okay from my principal to carry a multi-tool with me on the job. At the very least, I will always have my Leatherman Charge handy, as well as a squirt on my keychain along with an STR TiPry. Neither of those would be a very good weapon against a combatant with a projectile weapon, but I'm glad to have them nonetheless.

What it comes down to is that having some sort of plan is ALWAYS important. Practicing situational awareness is even more important. And being dilligent--never becoming complacent--is paramount.

If the shtf at my school, I would close my blinds, turn my lights off and have my students turn their desks on their sides and create a little wall for them to huddle behind a few feet from a wall to the side of the classroom door. I would take my file-cabinets and create a wall right in front of the door to act as an impediment to a would-be intruder, then I would break one of the legs off of my stool and try to position myself in a place where I might be able to effect some damage. The knife-blade on my Charge would be available as well. Of course, this is all contingent on me not shitting my pants as soon as it all goes down. Again...who can know?

It should go without saying that this plan (maybe) works because I have only one door into my classroom. Dan...Maybe you can subtly request that you get a similar type of classroom for your classes. At least that would be a bit more defensible.

Jason
 
Tohatchi NM said:
Defense starts with community, not with a weapon. Saying hello to people, figuring out how they're doing, and when they're in distress will stop more shootings than carrying. This is not a process that starts with someone in crisis. It starts with a loving home when he or she is born, and embracing communities as they grow up. As a professor, you're getting pretty well-developed people with lots of quirks, and you have to work with that. You're also putting them in stressful positions - having to learn things that they'll soon use to get a job and build a good life. This stress isn't bad - you have to heat up steel and beat on it to make a hard blade - but the stress needs to be tempered with compassion and understanding.

You can't control all aspects of a person's life - family, friends, relationships, etc. - but you can offer a smile, a handshake, or a listening ear. Your classroom can be a safe place apart from whatever other messes they are dealing with. Even if you look at this cynically, helping someone to feel comfortable in your class may lead them to target another environment.

This may sound touchy-feely, but so what? It seems like there's a cultural pattern in school shootings - similar shooters with similar motives. This sounds like it demands a cultural solution.

I don't really have anything to add on the tactical issue, except a few opinions. Personally, I think licensed concealed carry should be broader. If you trust someone enough to let them carry, then they should be allowed to carry in schools, Walmart, etc. If they're not well trained and sensible enough to carry in crowded public places, then they shouldn't be carrying on the street either. Also, I think broader concealed carry would at least change the way pre-meditated shootings were carried out. It's a factor that makes things like Virginia Tech or NIU more difficult, and may deter some people. The others would likely choose a different time or place.

With regard to armed citizens stopping such incidents - there are a million things that I hope never happen to me. If some of them do, I'd rather be in a position to react as well as possible. (Though that means I should probably spend more time learning about investing and legal matters than firearm training. I'm much more likely to have an unfortunate financial or legal problem than I am to be in a gunfight). i.e. I'd rather be armed and never be in an incident, than unarmed in a shooting.

I'm skeptical of expanding involuntary detention and psychiatric mandates. There is a time, place, and person for such measures, but they are a serious invasion of personal liberty. As such, there should be a high bar for restricting personal rights on psychological grounds and a clear-cut procedure for having restrictions removed. Yes, I realize that may put more dangerous people on the streets than a highly restrictive policy.
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I think you said what I was TRYING to say better than I ended up saying it:thumbup:

Good post:D
 
Hollow...that was a hell of a story. Glad your abuelo had the presence of mind to think proactively. Moreover, that DOES correlate directly with what Tohatchi said. Being a good neighbor/teacher/etc... might be probably the BEST way to preempt things like this occurring.
 
I'm all for being pleasant, treating people with respect, etc. My family and friends thank me for it. I would like to think that total strangers don't see me as a menacing figure.

But when out amongst the English, I am surrounded by people I don't know, and who don't know me.

Almost by definition, these "shooters" seek out public places full of people they likely don't know, or full of people they have rubbed shoulders with for days, weeks, months or years.

By the time they make the decision to arm and take life, they aren't picky about who gets a hole.

Andy
 
Gun Free Zone = Target Rich Environment

Where else can someone go to have this type of killing spree without being interrupted by LE or someone in the crowd with a concealed weapon? Outlawing guns on campus is very short-sighted but helps achieve an agenda. It isn't about stopping the killings, it's about control. Now the good legislators in Illinois have the ammunition to hit state with with an ammunition ban. It's not about stopping crime, it's about control.

Sorry Dan, that probably doesn't help you much.
 
If someone is willing to die to carry out their agenda there is nothing that can be done to stop them. Your best example of this is the bombings in the middle east. All that security and bombs are still going off.

If someone is willing to break one law a million more won’t stop them. Unfortunately awareness is not 100% all the time. Reaction is always slower than action.
 
I wish I could find the story...but it's one told often in our house.

...about a guy that started/tried to shoot people and a kid tackled him and strong-armed the weapon away from him. People called him a hero for being brave enough to approach someone that was armed. He said he hadn't even thought about himself being in danger...he just wanted to put a stop to it. His concern for the crowd overrode his concern for himself.

We need more guys like him...I think if we had them...there would be fewer casualties. Yes, there is a good chance you might get killed...but you might also get killed running away.

Personally, if a shooter came in my classroom I am going to automatically assume that I am a "dead man walking" and will do my best to make sure the shooter goes with me and/or doesn't take any students with him.



I will gladly take suggestions though...


Thanks for keeping the chatter calm and constructive, guys...and no personal remarks.

Upstanding crowd here. :thumbup:
 
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