Shaping by Hand

A puukko grind has no secondary bevel, and therefore the primary bevel is relatively steep, steeper than a saber grind. It's been a while since I looked at the Bladerigger's site but his Archangel is a puukko grind ... or you can look at traditional puukkos at www.chaicutlery.com ... let's see ... here's a picture:
ro-grandfather.jpg


It's just a flat blade with one bevel. We're so used to knives with a secondary bevel you might assume there's one on that knife and it's just too small to see in the picture, but there isn't -- it's just one bevel from the flat to the very edge.

Puukkos have bevels on both sides but some American tantos have only a single bevel only on one side. That's even easier because you don't have to worry about getting it symmetrical, but it has disadvantages, too; it doesn't want to cut in a straight line ... they're good for some purposes, but not as good an all-around knife.

A puukko grind makes an excellent knife, and there would be much less filing involved than in making a full flat grind or even a saber grind.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Cougar, you picked one of my all-time favorite puukko designs as an example.
I believe they call that one the "Grandfather".
Thanks.

Phillip, what kind of saw do you use?
I don't know too much about files, either.
We have a surprisingly world class hardware and tool store in our little community; if I know what to ask for they can provide it.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
I think the great thing about filing by hand is the fact that you can do some things that are vary difficult by machine. It obviously takes longer, but it is well worth it. Do something out of the ordinary.

John Yeackley

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http://www.toptexknives.com/yeackley.htm My contribution to the world of knife fanatics.


 
Ken,
We use a JET horizontal/vertical bandsaw. Only cost about $250. We us LENNOX DIEMASTER II blades. They cut stainless very well.

The files that Phillip used were made in Austria. 14" bastard cut mill files.

BTW, the pic is just a scan. I laid the blade
down and pushed a button. I love these computers.


[This message has been edited by BARRY JONES (edited 19 December 1999).]
 
Ken, you are right. It is a Heimo Roselli "Grandfather".
Concerning files, i can only tell you to stay away from the cheap stuff from far east. They are mostly made from case hardened cheap bad steel and the cuts are very uneven.
I do not know if they are available in the USA, but i use nothing but F.W.Dick or Pferd (horse brand) or Hase (rabbit brand) files with Dick being the best. All of them are made from very good tool steels and if they have served as files and are finished you have left a good piece of steel to make some knies from. I forge them and make some very hard damascus from them, too, by blending them with 52100 roller bearing steel.

Have a nice christmas!

Achim
 
Would someone please comment on single cut files versus double cut files?
Double cut files look like they would remove more metal and at a greater variety of working angles.
If applicable, would you use double cut files early in the shaping and single cut later?
Or...?

Also, as regards methods of scribing reference lines, do you make the lines in the steel or in some kind of surface material, such as paint or dye?
Or...?

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Ken,

I start out using a double cut bastard file on the blade bevels. They work really well. I push the file using a normal stroke to start the bevels. Once I remove enough steel, I hold the same file perpendicular to the blade and draw it, or push it. The file will act like a plow and cut a nice set of long grooves. I believe files cut better and faster this way. After my blade is flat I switch to a smoother cut file to remove the deeper scratches. It is very important to keep your files clean of any metal slivers. They can actually dig into the steel and cut a deeper groove if left jammed into the teeth.
After everything is smoothed out I start using 100 grit sandpaper and give it more elbow grease. Sand out all file marks and move on up to 220, 320 and then heat treat.

Be careful at the tip. Push the file away from the tip to avoid rounding it over.

I almost forgot to mention, take a board a tad narrower than the blade you are filing, lock it into a vise and c-clamp the blade onto that.



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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
I use a scibe to mark the center line and the radii for the shoulder area. I do not use a dye on the steel because I have to whipe it down so often it just won't stay on.

Send me a pic or scan of the first blade you do. I did a demonstration of this for the North Carolina Custom Knifemakers Guild and one of the members went home, tried it, and is now doing them better than me.

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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
Hey Phillip- is there a way to get or make a scribe for marking center lines on the edge of a blank cheaply? It was suggested to me to use a drill bit until I can afford a scribe (I don't have $25 US for one). Is the drill bit method my best bet until I get some more cash?
P.S., All I have is files too Ken! Takes a while but I enjoy it.

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"Come What May..."
 
Crayola,

A drill bit works just fine. Just be sure to use one the same thickness as the steel you use.



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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
Regarding FILES....I notice MSC has CARBIDE files listedin their catalog. these are aimed at the die sinker cat. 'look like a carbide file in a holder with handles somewhat like unto a hand plane. 3 or 4 times the cost of a big file but might last long time. Any body try these?
 
I have never heard of those files but the carbide sounds great. I might have to get one and try it.
The file that I used on the blade above is an old, at least 25 years, Disston 14 inch bastard. After all these years it still cuts good. It helped that my father worked for Disston for 20 years. Got lots of nice toys to play with.



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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
Just figured I'd throw in my $0.02...

In front of me now is a 90% accurate replica
of the small Bub Worrell tanto neck knife
shown on page 31 of the March 2000 Tactical
Knives. I cut it out of 1/8" mystery metal,
and filed to shape. It took me about two evenings, and I get off work at 7:00 PM. Not that hard, especially since I only have a couple of small, cheap files. Anyway, I have since found out that the stock is probably just mild steel and will not harden.

However, the exercise was fun, and I learned a few things about shaping metal, so when I do it "for real" using some tool steel, the product will be that much better. One question about the "pukko grind," though. I like the look of it, but everything I've read says that one should not grind to a sharp edge prior to heat treating. Since the pukko grind is a single bevel, how would I possibly avoid having a sharp edge? If I were to leave a slight flat at the edge and then heat treat, it would be alot of work to finish the bevel (in fact, totally changing the angle...) on the hardened blade, no?
 
Would someone please confirm Mr44's understanding that one should not sharpen the edge prior to heat treatment?
What kind of edge should the blade have during heat treatment?

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Mr44,

After heat treating, sharpen the edge with a secondary bevel. You can leave as is or polish the bevels into an appleseed edge (convex edge). The appleseed works real well and produces a super sharp edge.
Once you have finished polishing take the burr off with a leather strop or run it across a paper wheel that has buffing compound on it.

Hope this helps.
Post a pic when finished, if you can.

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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
Do not sharpen before heat treat. Leave the edge about 1/16 thick and make sure you don't have any big scratches that can cause the blade to crack.
frown.gif


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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
OK... Thanks to Phillip for confirming and expanding upon what I've been told/read so far on this subject. Leaving the edge unsharpened makes total sense on a double ground piece but...

How does Ernie Emerson achieve that true chisel grind on his CQC-6, while following this logic then? There is no secondary bevel on it, same goes for alot of Bladerigger's stuff. The grind terminates in a sharp edge. If they were working with say -- 1/8" stock, and left the edge 1/16" thick prior to heat treat, It seems that it would take a lot of hard grinding to form a true chisel grind on the hardened piece... Ideas?
 
I have done chisel grinds and double grinds just like Emerson and Piorek. I leave the grind thick, heat treat, then CAREFULLY regrind it to an edge. I do this against a board that is bolted to the work rest on my sander. NO, this is not cheating. I still hold every piece by hand and have to make the grind look good. It does not do it for me. It merely acts as a guide.
I am able to set the board at any angle from 45degrees to 5degrees.
The main thing is to keep things cool when grinding.
cool.gif


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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
So, Phillip, you say you take off the largest volume of steel in its soft state and then regrind it in its hard state, taking off just enough to make the 1/16" flat into a sharp edge.
In the case of a chisel or puukko grind, or any other flat grind, that would mean taking the face off of the single bevel, about 1/16" deep for the chisel grind and 2 X 1/32" for the flat grind.
It sounds like a good argument for a hollow grind if you have a lot of knives to produce and need to do it efficiently.
Come to think of it, it makes a good argument for the clam shell or convex grind, as well, since you can round the flat into an edge and it will still look like a flat grind.
I think Gene Osborn did that on the heavy-dagger/short-sword he made for me.
It looks good.
Out of curiosity, what happens if you heat treat a sharpened edge?

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
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