Shipping insurance

[King of the Cheese]

I think the issue here is more “misunderstanding” of how insurance works… or maybe people that do know insurance is for the seller think that sellers are less likely to ghost the forum and more likely to make the seller whole if the package doesn’t show up if one can force the buyer to get insurance… but the seller could STILL keep the claim money and not make buyer whole. So it’s all just psychology.

If it makes the buyer sleep peaceably at night knowing that the seller paid more money to ship the package, so be it.. but as alluded to earlier, that needs to be made known up front when negotiating a price, and the “listed price” absolutely doesn’t entitle the buyer to “seller’s insurance. The price for the knife is the price for the knife shipped to the door... however the seller deems suitable… absent any considerations previously agreed upon before the sale.

 

[Quiet]

I'm fine with any of those options being provided to the buyer.

I don't always purchase insurance, though mostly I have on larger sales...but I always know that any loss is on me. Keeps it simple. And I'd hold any seller to the same obligation, unless an agreement to different terms was arrived at up front.

Exactly. A seller should be free to handle a loss at his discretion. His reputation is 100% on the line in that situation, as we all know. I have no issue in stating publicly that I personally do not sell anything that I can't afford to have vanish. I don't sell knives here to pay bills, but I realize not everyone is like that, so perhaps it might make sense for them. I just did not appreciate the assertion that if you don't buy insurance, you're somehow at fault and "clearly haven't read the rules".

Also, another word on USPS Insurance, because whenever this comes up every other month, I'm always given the impression that some folks here think that they can just tell USPS "Oh yeah, that $500 Hinderer? I was paid $850 for it, please send my $850 + shipping I paid, etc., check to...." and they're going to get paid $850 plus whatever else on top of that. Heh, it doesn't work like that, not by a longshot. The horror stories alone in trying to get USPS to pay you what your item is worth are out there (and here) for the finding, especially if it's a collectible item (like say, a high end pocket knife whose value exceeds that of whatever they cost when new), and even more especially if it's one that you've had for a long time and thus don't have any receipts to give USPS. I sold collectibles on Ebay for years back in the day, and filed an insurance claim three times, and was never made whole any of those times. "Well, you can't prove it's worth what you're saying it's worth." was the response each time.

 

[ferider]

Also, another word on USPS Insurance, because whenever this comes up every other month, I'm always given the impression that some folks here think that they can just tell USPS "Oh yeah, that $500 Hinderer? I was paid $850 for it, please send my $850 + shipping I paid, etc., check to...." and they're going to get paid $850 plus whatever else on top of that. Heh, it doesn't work like that, not by a longshot. The horror stories alone in trying to get USPS to pay you what your item is worth are out there (and here) for the finding, especially if it's a collectible item (like say, a high end pocket knife whose value exceeds that of whatever they cost when new), and even more especially if it's one that you've had for a long time and thus don't have any receipts to give USPS. I sold collectibles on Ebay for years back in the day, and filed an insurance claim three times, and was never made whole any of those times. "Well, you can't prove it's worth what you're saying it's worth." was the response each time.

Very true. Don't expect you get anything from your USPS insurance.

Also - that's my gut feeling - the more you insure for, the more likely it will be stolen on the road.

 

[King of the Cheese]

USPS insurance on knives is like 3rd party warranties on cars: You’re going to have to fight to get that money, they’re going to fight you to lower the amount they give you, and in the end you probably paid for something that made USPS money with little to no obligation on their end.

 

[bax229]

Separating money from the government is like squeezing blood from a turnip...But they are more than happy to accept your insurance payment

 

[Blues]

Separating money from the government is like squeezing blood from a turnip...But they are more than happy to accept your insurance payment

Pardon my brag...but I once got an assessment from the IRS, (not big money), for something they felt I owed and I felt was wrong.

I paid them the money up front, and along with the check I wrote that I would not file for reconsideration if they disagreed, but enumerated the reasons why I thought they were acting outside of the spirit of the law.

A few months later I received a check in the mail from Uncle Sam for the full amount. A victory for the little guy. And proof it can happen.

 

[Sbs1974]

Personally, I insure very few packages unless the buyer asks at which time I let them know how much it will cost them (whatever I have to pay). I take responsibility if an item is lost. I have had incredibly good luck so far, so I’ll continue to do what I have been.

 

[rhino]

I was considering ordering some ammo over the weekend. The vendor had line item charge for shipping insurance! You could decline, but the default was to add a fee for it. I thought, "They want me to pay for the privilege of assuming their liability for them?"

No, thank you.

 

[Sbs1974]

I was considering ordering some ammo over the weekend. The vendor had line item charge for shipping insurance! You could decline, but the default was to add a fee for it. I thought, "They want me to pay for the privilege of assuming their liability for them?"

No, thank you.

I think some of it boils down to how much profit there is involved. A lot of times I will sell items for what I paid for them plus shipping. So if I paid $90 and shipping is $10, then I ask for $100. I don’t have room for insurance unless I want to lose money and many times I’m already selling the item for cheap so no, I won’t provide free insurance. Sure, if I am asking huge profit, I’d do insurance free if they want. But also, if the package is lost, I’d return the buyers money so there is no risk and honestly they don’t even need insurance.

 

[nautiquess]

My issue in posing the original question here was the fact that I did not ask the seller for insurance. He offered it to me, which in turn led me to ask him how he would handle a lost in transit item. When his response was "its out of my hands once received by the shipper" after paying with friend and family, I as the buyer would have zero recourse, and walked from the deal. And he had plenty of good feedback. So what appears to be a stand-up seller, made not be so stand-up when the chips are down.

 

[Sbs1974]

My issue in posing the original question here was the fact that I did not ask the seller for insurance. He offered it to me, which in turn led me to ask him how he would handle a lost in transit item. When his response was "its out of my hands once received by the shipper" after paying with friend and family, I as the buyer would have zero recourse, and walked from the deal. And he had plenty of good feedback. So what appears to be a stand-up seller, made not be so stand-up when the chips are down.

Yea I’d have walked also.

 

[Quiet]

My issue in posing the original question here was the fact that I did not ask the seller for insurance. He offered it to me, which in turn led me to ask him how he would handle a lost in transit item. When his response was "its out of my hands once received by the shipper" after paying with friend and family, I as the buyer would have zero recourse, and walked from the deal. And he had plenty of good feedback. So what appears to be a stand-up seller, made not be so stand-up when the chips are down.

So, then really this has nothing to do with shipping insurance, but rather with a seller who doesn't know the rules. That statement they made is categorically false, because if he didn't make it right with you in the event of a package loss, he'd be outta here.

 

[nautiquess]

Agreed, had he not offered and then a problem occur, where's the recourse. He was obviously shrugging his responsibility. Just trying to illustrate that its buyer beware, do your due diligence. We are all commenting here obviously because most of us would most likely not embark upon a sale without having a plan to keep our names in good standing in the event of an issue. I think the purchase of insurance or not, how its presented to a buyer, and with friends and family becoming more of the norm than the exception, we all need pay close attention. Had he not offered the information then shrugging the responsibility once its in the hands of the shipper, who knows what could happen. Perhaps the exchange rules could be updated to in fact state that its the sellers responsibility till the item is received. Not sure if that's possible, but thats why I'm raising the issue. Not every seller views their responsibility the same here apparently.

 

[David Mary]

Haven't kept up on the whole thread, but:

Whether the buyer asks or not, as stated previously, it's up to the seller to purchase insurance if he wants to protect himself against loss.

Agreed.

Have you ever tried to file a claim on USPS insurance? How'd that work out for you?

I have filed claims, but shortly after the package has always turned up. However, I trust they would honor a claim in the event of no delivery.

So are you saying that if the item you sold didn't get to the buyer, you would not return the funds? Please make clear your position.

I absolutely would. Because that's what a stand-up person would do (which you can see from the red zero under my avatar, I am.). And that's my point. There are other ways to make someone whole if something happens in transit. Immediately offer a full refund, send another of the knife you might have, offer a different knife, etc. None of those things involve purchasing insurance.

I agree with this as well, but that is the point of buying insurance. It is a couple dollars more per package, but peace of mind that if I have to send out a refund or perhaps another knife, I will be made whole in the end.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I base my purchase of insurance upon my own personal tolerance for loss. If it was a high enough $ figure item that refunding the buyer in the event of a package not delivered would hurt so much that I want a buffer I will (at my own expense of course). I am not going to say what my baseline figure is for this but for everything I have sold online (not the few knives I have) I think I have opted for it maybe three or four times. I look at it as being "self-insured" as simply till the package is in the hands of the buyer it is MY responsibility.

 

[Blues]

I agree with this as well, but that is the point of buying insurance. It is a couple dollars more per package, but peace of mind that if I have to send out a refund or perhaps another knife, I will be made whole in the end.

Unfortunately, many of us don't have invoices or documentation for custom and production pieces we've purchased over the years, and sometimes the maker may be out of business, deceased etc. The fact that the USPS makes trying to collect, (for many), as hard as they do, makes the whole process unattractive to many of us.

I understand that UPS and FedEx are better, if less convenient, (depending on location), but probably worth the extra $...from what I've read.

You, David, are in the enviable position of having records and invoices for knives sold and their prices. Of course, I don't know much about the process up north of the border.

 

[David Mary]

Yes, I think I forgot to mention that my claims have been with Canada Post, not USPS, but I shared for what I would hope is analogous service. And USPS always takes over when it crosses the border anyway. The process seems pretty straight forward and is initiated online through a "file a claim" link. I just click the link, choose the "is my package lost?" option, write a quick letter like "Good afternoon, just checking for my recipient if the package has been lost, if you'd be kind enough to investigate. Thanks, and all the best!"

Share the details of the transaction, and recipients info (Canada Post wants to contact them and ask if they got the package, and corroborate my declaration of what is in it and the value).

PayPal invoice does make this easier as it's all right there but it would probably be minimal work to have a system for recording transaction info without it. I have yet to see how the process ends when no package is delivered. In two years plus of shipping everything found its way home.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Pardon my brag...but I once got an assessment from the IRS, (not big money), for something they felt I owed and I felt was wrong.

I paid them the money up front, and along with the check I wrote that I would not file for reconsideration if they disagreed, but enumerated the reasons why I thought they were acting outside of the spirit of the law.

A few months later I received a check in the mail from Uncle Sam for the full amount. A victory for the little guy. And proof it can happen.

Wait until your get billed, six diffeenrt claimed total amounts due for the same year, none accurate AND get two extra refund checks not due AND and a notice that you overreported income (The computers lost it.) - all for the same years and in a period of seven months. Only the computers thought these contradictory positions were accurate - none of the people, which they put in writign five times. ND SO I was told the following by an IRS "Director" of the largest IRS processing center: "If you get a bill from the IRS, it might be accurate."

 

[hhmoore]

Whether the buyer asks or not, as stated previously, it's up to the seller to purchase insurance if he wants to protect himself against loss.

The buyer is held harmless until the package is delivered. If it is not delivered, or lost along the way, it is the seller's loss...insured or not.

Insurance is for the seller...which is why the buyer cannot file a claim against it.

Anything else is simply deflection, smoke and mirrors...unless an agreement has been made between the two parties at the time of the sale.

It's a bitter pill to swallow when things go sideways...but that's the way business should be conducted.

This quote is a good starting place.
I'm dragging this thread up because I found myself viewing a number of ads today. I hope I was just unlucky, but it seemed like an inordinate number of those ads (4 out of about 15) contained wording about insurance being paid by buyers if desired. It seems that the idea that a seller's responsibility ends with turning the item over to a carrier is getting traction. That was never a thing here, except with some international sales; so I find myself wondering why it's happening now. Is this spilling over from other venues? Has it been happening for a while, and I just didn't notice because I haven't been looking for knives to buy?

 

[Blues]