Recommendation? Silver Investing

[22-rimfire]

I used to buy proof silver eagles to give as birthday presents, especially if they were minted during their birth year. US Silver Eagles have been minted for the last 30 years. But these were kids and they really don't see the significance of having a silver eagle on their birth year. But I was always looking for interesting presents and certainly that be one of them and not real expensive.

With the current price of silver being rather stable, I might need to order a roll of silver eagles to add to the pile.

 

[BOSS1]

My comment on bulk was a reference to, example, buy a greater volume circulated Morgans at or very close to spot VS a couple of mint collectors coins for the same $.

Fair enough...there's limitless 'strategies' to investing.

I've owned silver since the late 60's, all 90% us coinage....mostly Kennedy halves but some walkers and franklins along with morgans and peace dollars. Since the 80's when the Hunt brothers were trying to break Comex, older investors became very skittish of silver. I have sold off most of my silver. There are better investments, IMO. The only guys that make money are the brokers and dealers.

The collector market is fickle no matter the item. Keep in mind they minted thousands upon thousands of newer coins.

In the shorter term, yeah, the brokers/dealers get the $$...I don't see it as a 'daytrading' type of endeavor...you've got to be willing to sit on things for awhile. It's sort of like muscle cars...that market seems to fluctuate ALOT year by year.

And you're exactly right...they mint like 30-40 MILLION+ Silver Eagles a year, which is why the vast majority of the loose ones you see are a buck or two over spot. It's when you start getting in the graded coins that you start seeing some increased cost and value. And these are just a tiny fraction of the total mintage. As I say, I'm just dabbling in it, and scratching the surface of knowledge pool. Like muscle cars or books or other items, etc. a lot of small little details that vastly affect the value. I've also figured out that one last little grading point, from an almost perfect 69 to a perfect 70 is a BIG difference in value, perhaps more than most collectables. It's generally equating to about $100+ now, and this could lead to $1000's later.

Well see how it pays out. Like I say, over the next few years, paychecks permitting, I'll dabble a little here and there. If I'm lucky, maybe I'll find a real dedicated collector that will share some knowledge and give me a heads up on a few collectables. For me that's about the only way I see to get ahead a bit, unless like I say, silver just absolutely tanks and I could be several pounds for cheap and sit on it. With my current financials I can't buy a couple hundred ounces and hope it goes north of a $100/oz. But if I can buy a few decent coins every year, maybe in 15 or 20 years a couple of them will be real winners.

Time will tell. YMMV.

BOSS

Good luck out there.

 

[JB in SC]

You can research coin prices for individual MS70 Silver Eagles over the last thirty years. NGC is a good source of pricing.

 

[BOSS1]

Well, I continue to educate myself on the topic...

Long story short, when it comes to graded Silver Eagles...

If you want to collect, the 69 Graded coins are probably the way to go.

**But** if you're looking to invest for future returns...you pretty much gotta cough up the $100 to get the 70 (mint) rated Silver Eagles. The future values are just sooooo vastly different. A 69 might fetch a couple hundred (or less), where a 70 might command a few grand (all depending on the rarity/collectability). Probably wish I would have known this a few weeks ago (before I shelled out for 69 graded coins...sorta leaped before I looked). Contemplating returning them and getting a few less 70's.

The other thing is different ratings organizations command different values in some peoples' eyes. And you will need to check them when you get them to make sure they do appear flawless (not all graders are created equal), and even have to make sure they're stored well (kinda goes without saying).

So there ya go...YMMV.

BOSS

 

[BFS]

I picked up 10 of these 2017 NGC MS70 Early Release 1 oz silver Eagles last month. I'm not astute in regards to coins, but $36 and change sounded like a good deal for an MS70 graded coin. Plus I figured an "Early Release" means that they were some of the first struck coins with the new 2017 dies from the West Point mint.

https://www.jmbullion.com/2017-american-silver-eagle-ngc-ms70-er/

Then I read this a few minutes ago....

"
Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles have never been used as money and, therefore, show absolutely no wear. A few have been used for jewelry, but most have remained in their original tubes and are still in pristine condition. Consequently, nearly all Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles submitted to the grading services come back MS-69 or MS-70.

Considering that the bulk of Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles submitted have never been touched by human hands, one has to ask why all coins do not come back graded MS-70, the highest grade awarded. Promoters of slabbed modern coins would tell you that it is “the quality of the strike.” They further assert that coins struck early in a die’s life receive better “strikes.” This is telemarketer mumbo jumbo used in attempts to impart greater value to modern coins.

More than ten million 1-oz Gold Eagles have been minted. For Silver Eagles, the total balloons to more than 128 million. Because most of these coins would grade MS-69 or MS-70 if submitted to PCGS or NGC, real coin collectors and numismatists have absolutely no interest in slabbed GEs and SEs. Promoters use the acceptance of grading services to imply added value that simply does not exist. PCGS and NGC go along with the scam because they earn fees grading the coins.

The principals at PCGS and NGC know what is going on with the grading and promotion of modern bullion coins. The industry would have still more respect for PCGS and NGC if they had continued to refuse to grade modern coins. Money has a way of clouding one’s vision. Why turn down grading fees just because the coins are being used to hoodwink the unwary? Visitors to this site have been forewarned."

 

[BOSS1]

I picked up 10 of these 2017 NGC MS70 Early Release 1 oz silver Eagles last month. I'm not astute in regards to coins, but $36 and change sounded like a good deal for an MS70 graded coin. Plus I figured an "Early Release" means that they were some of the first struck coins with the new 2017 dies from the West Point mint.

https://www.jmbullion.com/2017-american-silver-eagle-ngc-ms70-er/

Then I read this a few minutes ago....

"
Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles have never been used as money and, therefore, show absolutely no wear. A few have been used for jewelry, but most have remained in their original tubes and are still in pristine condition. Consequently, nearly all Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles submitted to the grading services come back MS-69 or MS-70.

Considering that the bulk of Gold Eagles and Silver Eagles submitted have never been touched by human hands, one has to ask why all coins do not come back graded MS-70, the highest grade awarded. Promoters of slabbed modern coins would tell you that it is “the quality of the strike.” They further assert that coins struck early in a die’s life receive better “strikes.” This is telemarketer mumbo jumbo used in attempts to impart greater value to modern coins.

More than ten million 1-oz Gold Eagles have been minted. For Silver Eagles, the total balloons to more than 128 million. Because most of these coins would grade MS-69 or MS-70 if submitted to PCGS or NGC, real coin collectors and numismatists have absolutely no interest in slabbed GEs and SEs. Promoters use the acceptance of grading services to imply added value that simply does not exist. PCGS and NGC go along with the scam because they earn fees grading the coins.

The principals at PCGS and NGC know what is going on with the grading and promotion of modern bullion coins. The industry would have still more respect for PCGS and NGC if they had continued to refuse to grade modern coins. Money has a way of clouding one’s vision. Why turn down grading fees just because the coins are being used to hoodwink the unwary? Visitors to this site have been forewarned."

Thanks for sharing...

I'd say there's some legitimacy to what's being said above, but then again, everybody has an opinion, and many contradict each other (so called experts). As some have put it, the market is 'fickle,' but then again, most are. Watch a Barrett Jackson auction of cars...some really just don't bring in near as much as they thought they would. The 'value' is what someone is willing to pay...get two or three rich people that really want something, and the price paid may be well above expectations.

But in any event, yes...I think you're typical 'nothing special' Silver Eagle isn't going to command too much, especially non-graded. **But** if you look at the graded anniversary (10, 20, 25, 30th) and/or low mintage coins, there is the potential for decent returns down the road. Case in point, I just saw a two-year old 2015 Silver Eagle being listed for around $6,000 due to the low mintage. What might it bring in 10 years? 20? More? Less? I dunno. Those are the opportunities you might want to keep an eye out for. If you're really into it, I'm sure there's probably forums to learn and join.

First day of issue...burnished, satin, proof, reverse proof, mint state, etc etc etc. it all plays in...and humans, typically want the newest and/or best ones first. Kind of the whole point of my last post was just the VAST difference in the 69 vs. 70 grades. I was really quite surprised...who'd think 1 rating point would equate to basically nothing to possibly thousands of dollars in value? Like I say, I was surprised.

Of course, you could buy loose coins, hope they don't get too banged around in delivery or buy at a show, and pay to have them graded as well.

In any event, I don't see myself being a 'stacker' (large quantity buyer) unless silver really tanks, like down below $10/oz. But I will keep an eye out for potentially low/rare Silver Eagles like that 2015 described above, and see if I can maybe put something away for down the road.

The other side of the coin (pun intended), is at least it is a form of investing/saving. It's taking that $$ out of your pocket that you'd spend on other trivial stuff and setting it aside, just in a different medium, for future use. Even if you don't get a great return, as long as you don't loose your shirt, it's still $$ for later. Part of the reason why you don't all your investment eggs in one basket.

Good discussion...keep sharing.

BOSS

 

[AKC]

Metals? Look into ratio trading...

 

[Shann]

Real estate is great, but it can be expensive and risky. If you are handy, you might be able to get a foreclosure for cheap and turn it into something. A guy I know who is a builder bought a property, did basic carpentry, electric and water to bring it up to snuff and sold it for a large profit and the buyer got a pretty good deal too.

I've got two apartment buildings that eventually, I hope will be a nice revenue stream for me in my old age. I am not handy, so I only do the grunt work and I have to pay for the maintenance. I also have to deal with tenants.

The problem with real estate is that there are big carrying costs. Taxes and insurance have to be paid every year. If its developed, there is also maintenance costs. Also, you can't get into real estate just investing a few dollars a month. Even cheap properties cost thousands. (On the other hand they aren't making any more land these days!).

 

[BOSS1]

Real estate is great, but it can be expensive and risky. If you are handy, you might be able to get a foreclosure for cheap and turn it into something. A guy I know who is a builder bought a property, did basic carpentry, electric and water to bring it up to snuff and sold it for a large profit and the buyer got a pretty good deal too.

I've got two apartment buildings that eventually, I hope will be a nice revenue stream for me in my old age. I am not handy, so I only do the grunt work and I have to pay for the maintenance. I also have to deal with tenants.

The problem with real estate is that there are big carrying costs. Taxes and insurance have to be paid every year. If its developed, there is also maintenance costs. Also, you can't get into real estate just investing a few dollars a month. Even cheap properties cost thousands. (On the other hand they aren't making any more land these days!).

I appreciate your input, but what does this have to do with silver investing?

As previously indicated, if I were in a position to buy/flip property, I probably wouldn't be looking at modestly investing in a few individual Silver Eagles. This conversation is more for those of us who might have a few hundred bucks a year to invest a little in silver or other precious metals. I probably won't make us vastly rich, but if we can get a little return down the road, worth considering.

I'm learning as I go along, and just trying to share the slivers of knowledge that I'm picking up.

Cheers,
BOSS

 

[Shann]

Sorry Boss1. Three or four posts talked about investing in real estate so I just wanted to point out the downsides as opposed to something that once you pay for it, you have no more outlay.

 

[BOSS1]

Sorry Boss1. Three or four posts talked about investing in real estate so I just wanted to point out the downsides as opposed to something that once you pay for it, you have no more outlay.

No worries, all good. Threads do tend to drift sometimes.

BOSS

 

[BOSS1]

Greetings,

So looking back over the past few weeks, and what I've purchased, I've developed some general opinions. These are specific to Silver Eagles, but could broadly interpreted over silver/coins in general. As I'm relatively new at this, take it for what it's worth...YMMV.

First - this is for the modest investor/dabbler in silver...if you've got 4-5 figures to play with, you may wish to consider other investments, or becoming a large volume (stacker) individual.

So when it comes to Silver Eagles...

If you're just collecting because you like them, you can probably just buy ungraded/loose coins from the US Mint...probably avoid any secondary mark up, you can get little certificates of authenticity, velvet cases, etc. They have coin purchasing programs and the like. In most cases, in less silver really skyrockets, they'll more or less hold their value (about $50). If you want to take it to the next step, you can look at basic 69 graded coins.

But to the meat of it:

Generally speaking, it looks like you come down to about three versions of the coin:

1. Mint State - kind of your 'generic' Silver Eagle, often sterile (no mint mark) though it appears the default is the West Point Mint. They crank out usually about 40 Million of these per year, so they're not 'rare' in and of themselves.
2. Satin Finish, which as far as I can tell is the same as what some others call 'Burnished' finished. Considerably less of these per year, a few hundred thousand - maybe 1M.
3. Proof Coins: These are the shiney, polished 'presentation' type coins...normally what you get in the cases from the Mint with CoA, etc. Usually again about 500,000 to 1M mintage.

Low mintage coins seems to be those that are around 75,000 or less (these are getting into the more 'rare' versions.).

Mint Marks:

There are 4 Mints :
1. West Point (w)
2. Denver (D)
3. Philadelphia (P)
4. San Francisco (S)

Mint Marks generally limited, and enhance the value. Sometimes the mint does something unusual like mint a Silver Eagle version at a different mint, and a relatively small number of coins will have a different than normal mint mark, say and 'S' instead of the usual 'W.' This can make coins very highly sought after = valuable.

Grades: If you're buying newer 'slabbed' coins (those already graded and sealed in the holders). Unless you're dealing with really older coins that had been bagged or loose, most are going to be 69 or 70 (70 being mint). If you're looking for the best future return potential, and can afford it, spring for the 70 coins, and inspect them when you get them to make sure there's no flaws. This is where I believe I've made my biggest flaw...I had no idea just how important that last 1 grading point was...value wise, 69 to 70 can be HUGE. I mistakenly thought it wouldn't make that much difference.

There's four grading companies, they top two being NGC and PCGS. There's also ANACS. NGC and PCGS seem to have the best reputation. ANACS seems to be less 'popular' because its associated with HSN (home shopping network) and as such ruffled dealers' feathers, not so much out of lack of grading quality.

Also, each of these grading houses may do 'Limited Edition' runs...say something like #0011 of 5000 'First Day of Issue' coins. Keep in mind, that's only the limited edition from that particular company. Each company may do its own 'limited edition' run for that coin, so there may be many more than 5000 of those coins, just from different companies.

So what does it all boil down to for Silver Eagles?

Short version: If you're looking for best potential return, it seems:

1. If you can afford it, buy Graded 70 coins or the 69 coins. The difference can make a $100 coin be worth a $1000+. The value can be exponentially different for that one single point.
2. Look for coins with mint marks (W, S, P, D) over the sterile/unmarked versions. S and P marks seem to be considerably more rare.
3. Look to the satin/burnished or proof version, considerably lower mintages (~1Million or less).
4. Silver Eagles started in 1986, so 10, 20, 25, and 30th anniversary are worth looking for.
4. Anything with mintages lower than 75,000 is worth a look.
5. Be ready to sit on them for awhile. A couple of coins I bought a few weeks ago are already being listed for about $10 less than I purchased them for a few weeks ago (the initial 'brand new' craze wearing off, and now they're probably looking to clear out what they've got in inventory.

As I say, I'm just starting to scratch the surface...there's an almost unlimited number of combinations of various mints, grades, coins, issues, etc. But above is what I've sort of gleaned so far. If I'm off the mark, please chime in.

Cheers,
BOSS

 

[JB in SC]

I was just visiting my coin broker/dealer last Thursday. Most of the Silver Eagles are bringing a few dollars above spot pricing. The rarer and lower quantity mintage will do better, he thinks the mint may not offer low mintage coins in the future. They love selling direct and want to sell a lot of coins. The recent gold dime is one that fell flat, the coins were not well struck at all. The standing and sitting liberty gold coins are really nice but he thinks waiting until they get closer to spot pricing to buy is a good play. I've done a lot of business with him over the years and he's been pretty reliable. The summer months are the least volatile (short of some disaster) as most of the big brokers are on vacation.

 

[BOSS1]

I was just visiting my coin broker/dealer last Thursday. Most of the Silver Eagles are bringing a few dollars above spot pricing. The rarer and lower quantity mintage will do better, he thinks the mint may not offer low mintage coins in the future. They love selling direct and want to sell a lot of coins. The recent gold dime is one that fell flat, the coins were not well struck at all. The standing and sitting liberty gold coins are really nice but he thinks waiting until they get closer to spot pricing to buy is a good play. I've done a lot of business with him over the years and he's been pretty reliable. The summer months are the least volatile (short of some disaster) as most of the big brokers are on vacation.

Thanks for sharing...

Yes, loose/ungraded American Silver Eagles (ASE's), the ones where they're putting out roughly 40 million units...generally get Spot + a couple bucks. If you want to accumulate quantity, yeah, you can buy plenty of ASE's at that price (Spot + a couple bucks). That's certainly one strategy. Every couple paychecks, buy a few or whatever...but you'll have to get a considerable volume, and hope silver really climbs in value.

It's simple math...$1 per oz. climb x the number of ounces = profit. Well, if you have say 500 oz. ( or 31.25 pounds of silver...that would be a decent amount ...and it goes up $1/oz, you made $500. $2/oz. = $1000...and so on...but remember, you have to get that 500 oz. first...which would be around $8500 at current prices...that's more than 'dabbling' for the target audience of this discussion...and quite a bit of capital for most of us to have wrapped up in a commodity hoping for something of a return down the road. But then again, if silver were to make it to $200/oz as some claim it could, well, that $8500 investment just went to $100K, which would be good indeed.

But hopefully the graded ASE coins, particularly the 70's, of the limited mintage versions, bring in more a lot than spot + a couple bucks, otherwise, I'm going to be losing a lot because I'm overpaying by several times (as listed by about all the on-line dealers)...

Also, as it turns out, I'm going to be return two of the coins I purchased, and using that to buy to others that I hope will bring a lot better returns down the road.

BOSS

 

[UffDa]

Keep in mind that precious metals dealers always make money no matter what the price of silver or gold do. I lost a bunch of money buying silver. Not a disaster like some folks I knew in the early '80s when the Hunt brothers drove silver up to almost $50 per ounce.

I bought 100 oz at $8. Then another 100 oz at $6 and another 200 oz at $4. The last silver I bought was about $375 for 100 oz. My average cost was $5.15 per oz. I sold it for $4.25.


The question I pose in threads like this is what do you expect your silver or gold will do for you if TSHTF? How much would you need? $1000 worth? $10000? 1000000? What would you buy with it if there is nothing to buy? I'm not poopooing the idea. I have about 100 oz in 1 oz coins and bars just for the halibut, but be realistic.

 

[JB in SC]

When I owned a lot of silver I never had more than face value in it. I divested most of it prior to the Hunt debacle. It was a hedge during those days of 15% interest rates.