The New Tinder Challenge...Are You Up For It?

Greg Davenport

Greg Davenport

Joined
Nov 29, 1999
Messages
632
We just did a string on naming five tinders in your general location. Now that we are starting to look at all the posible tinders around us...Lets start seeing if they will work. Remember: An ideal tinder will be dry, have edges to catch the spark, and allow oxygen to flow within it (there are exceptions).

I wish I could do this but....

I'd like everyone to try a new tinder today and give us a report on it. It should be something you have never used before (it's ok if you have heard of someone using it before...as long as you have never used it). If you have a metal match, I'd like you to use it as your heat source.

Report on:

1. How you prepared it
2. Why you think it did or didn't work.
3. What is the next potential tinder you'd like to try?

No fires in the bathtub ....:>p

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Has anyone tried Magnesium tape? I don't know about availability, but it seems like the ideal starter. An old friend of mine used to fly Chinooks in the land of Bad Things, and was very impressed with the fires started in the aircraft Magnesium floor grating by tracers.
smile.gif


db
 
It wasn't one I tried today, but it was a new one I tried last week... Good old Birch tree. preferably live. Take a sharp knife to a clean piece of bark, still attached to the live tree. place the knife at a 90 degree angle, and scrape the bark. The resulting stuff rivals good pine sap-wood. Best tinder I've ever seen that can be had easily in a wilderness situation. Works easily with a metal match. Would probably work with flint and steel, but I didn't try it.
On to tried and true favorites. Dryer lint. Cheap, available, works. keep dry or soak in vaseline. Easier to light dry.


Stryver
 
Somting I'd like to try is boot pollish...I've got cans of it all over theplace and it burns using a match. Wonder of using a mm would get it going???

Oh well off to work
 
Hi Stryver,

I'd like you to do an experiment for the group...

I'd like you to get some birch bark, put it under water for one minute, prepare it to light (break it down by tearing it into strips and rubbing it between the palms of your hands), and then use your metal match to light it.

Remember for a tinder to work it should:

1. Be dry (exceptions to every rule)
2. have edges to catch the spark
3. allow oxygen to flow within it.

I'd like you to report to the group on whether you could light this tinder after it had been submersed in water. If you were, then tell us why it worked....

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
It is the first time I post a reply and hope it works.

Thanks all the moderators and participants for keeping it a great forum!!!! Wonderful work.

I am an absolute 'arm-chair survivalist' however very much interested in the topic. Therefore all my opinion about tinder is based mainly on 'bathtub experiments' spiced with a bit of camping. Just keep it in mind..

In response to Greg's weekend assignment i looked at few things and here are my findings:

1) All experiments were carried out with a metal match fire starter (ubiqitous one with the Mg block) WITHOUT Mg. Neither matches or lighters, sparks only. I always found it much easier with Mg and I am trying to restrict myself not to use it.

2) Paper from tea bag worked very nicely and as far as I read those bags are part of many survival kits. If emptied before, tea can be used still. (Dentures are great filters.)

2) Personal second favourite after petroleum jellied (ergo waterproofed) cotton balls are Bounty paper towels that I am using regularly as handkerchief. Strong, soft and survives in my pocket for longer than other tissues. Plus, does not smear on facial hair. Its texture is light, soaks well but dries qiuckly and presents lot of surface to catch fire. I believe that -with the same logic- any similarly light/porozous/fibrous paper paper is better than a thick one (ex. glossy magazines). Therefore, bathroom tissue is also good.

3) Hard liquor (100 proof= 50% EtOH by volume) worked great and might be part of a 'survival flat flask'. It works well for 'internal combustion' too however I believe that is not recommended in real survival. So you can start your fire with it. Potential problems: it is a low heat flame and EtOH mixes with water bringing the EtOH conc. down to the point where it might not ignite any more. Solution might be just bringing 95% EtOH with you and dilute it on the field for human consumption. Less bulk it would be. Other solution that I thought but never tried is isopropanol that DOES NOT MIX with H2O and floats on top of water like gasoline. I don
t know about its human consumption and would not recommend unless sure about its harmlessness.

4) Colognes tried and worked with good results. Wife's Moschino worked fine but my Hugo Boss (eau de toilette) was a clear winner. Since some perfume and eye pencils (?) (see 5) for that) are the bare essentials of her bag it is always a backup. Not so much, however, in the outdoors... But women's bags are a sure shot in a pinch.
Be aware that EtOH content varies with type but might be worth to try. Especially now, around the Christmas shopping...

5) Now come the pencils! Not much luck with #2 office pencil wood shavings and graphite powder but I am far not the master of fuzzing or shaving (they look like thick toothpicks). I gave up temporarily but assume a more experienced hand could make the difference. Eye pencils were not tested but I think they have grease and pigment instead of graphite. BTW, the old batteries that i used as kid had graphite core. Maybe depleted old batteries can be dissected to reuse parts?

6) Household sprays. Varied with type. Toilette odor neutralizer did not work but Lysol Brand II disinfectant spray is a wonder. It says it kills viruses, bacteria, mold and mildew. It comes with a fresh scent and -heck- ignites with first spark. No wonder, it has 79% EtOH. Check ingredients to see which might be better. Withthe help of a BIC lighter I could turn the spray into a small torch. I would not recommend this unless in survival, but might be potentially useful to ignite fast larger bulk/ area for signalling or to keep creepers in bay. I also have an 'engine starter' spray in my car which is highly fammable. It has ether in it which is a curse to work with in lab environment (too fammable and presents healt hazard too). This spray probably one of the greatest igniter but I would be even more careful with the use of that.

7) Stretched and cut small pieces of garbage bag and shopping bag did not work. Too bad, since I can easily harvest dozens of shopping bags from the trees of semi-urban areas and shores. Hopefully not that common in real wilderness.
Reason seems to be (after trying BIC lighter on it) that they rather melt than burn with a nice hot flame.

8) One last thought. If does not want to waste to much alcohol but spray it nicely, one can improvise a sprayer (similar to old household sprayers ?) from a straw. Cut it almost through diagonally and band at that point so to keep the two halves perpendicular to each other. Stick one end into the liquid intended to spray, the other in your mouth. Now, blow it.

Before I let this message go I have two comments looking for suggestion on.

9) I could not easily use pine pitch as a tinder without a fibrous material (cotton wool or paper towel wrapped around). Once started though it burned as a little torch for 1-2 min and made it easy to ignite other things or lit the campsite a bit. Did I do something wrong?

10) Thermit reaction was mentioned by one of us as a good starter. Please somebody refresh my chemistry: Fe2O3 and Mg powder? what ratio? how to measure ratio on field or premixed? if premixed how to avoid oxidation of Mg by air O2? it requires a high 'starter energy' and we used Mg ribbon, how would start on field? if Mg is available why not use just that? Hope somebody knows.

I appreciate any response.
Happy experimentation and a nice weekend everybody.

HM

 
IIRC from Sapper Leader course, Thermite is 2 parts Ferric Oxide and 3 parts aluminum by weight (though I have been wrong). Aluminum powder is easy to get, ferric oxide is just rust, also easy to get. Properly mixed, it makes a great booster...

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark,

Thank you for the Thermite info. Has anyone tried it on the field? Experience? You mix it at home in the right molar ratio or guestimate it on the field? Does spark start it? If premixed, how to avoid slow oxidation of Al by air O2? How sensitive to wetness?

Any answer is appreciated.

HM
 
Um, properly done, thermite can yield 3500 degrees C. I made it once in high school, and got a week's vacation because of it. It's far to dangerous to play with.

P.S. Does anyone know the world record time to bring a weber grill full of charcoal from cold to ready? Hint: it's under four seconds.

db

 
Hi Dave B,

The one week mandatory vacation tells me that the experiment went well...
I remember that we used Mg to start the reaction and could easily melt the metal container through. Great reaction to generate heat and besides that it does not generate gases to expand and explode (as far as remember) therefore it is still safer -to me- than other pyrotechniques. I am still curious about its practical usability in survival situation. Here is what I could come up with at that very moment:

1) Reaction is safe premixed due to its high temp requirement for start. So I would mix the ferric oxide and Al in right ratio using accurate balance.

2) Premix would be kept in airtight container to avoid Al turning into Al2O3 and lose its reactivity and to keep it dry.

3) Mg ribbon or 'spark-thrower' (we used it to decorate Christmas trees) would be used as initiator and carried along with it.

4) I would use fine powder chemicals to increase surface of reaction. (Usually helps.)

There are other pyrotechnical methods to start fire that I read here and there (KMnO4, sulfuric acid and sugar). However I am always afraid of the more drastic methods/chemicals that might bring more hazard than use. That's why I love the waterproof petroleum jellied cotton wool balls or natural tinder, metal match and Mg for helper. Safe, simple, reliable and easily available.

Since I have heard of kids blowing off their fingers in university chemistry labs when 'things went bad', I decided to look after my fingers more carefully.

Hope it helped,

HM
 
Greg--

I failed you on the birch bark... I took a nice XC ski jaunt today, through a birch forest, thinking about all the nice bark, and then came home, only to find that all the trees in the vicinity of my new home are alders, I think.
Anyways, I tried some alder bark. I pulled dead stuff off, I figgered my landlord wouldn't appreciate me cutting up his live trees, and brought it inside. Most everything outside is frosted right now, and the bark picked up more condensation bringing it inside. (It's still about -20 here) It was dryer than soaking it in water, but still damp. I used a knife at a 90 degree angle to get small, thin shavings from the bark. The bark had a inner corky layer, and an outer 'skin' layer. The stuff I got came from the outer layer.
After producing a pile of this, I was able to light it with a metal match, but it took some effort. Nowhere near as easy as the birch shavings. It had a tendancy to flame briefly and smolder, and was damp enough that it was hard to keep an ember.
Once going, the alder bark had some interesting characteristics. The outer layer seemed to be fairly resinous, even on my old dead stuff, and burned nicely, even damp. The inner layer smoked a lot, and would probably be good dry, but wasn't very good damp. I was able to light it with the shavings/outer layer tinder though, and had a nice pile of bark bruning in my kitchen. Smelled nice too. I'm glad I'm single...
Anyways, I'll pick up some birch when I go out skiing tomorrow, and should have a new set of experimental results for you then.

Stryver
 
You didn't fail. Learning is a proecess of trial and errror.

Suggestion: Make sure you are using birch bark. Instead of shavings...break the fibrous bark down by working it between the palms of your hands until it if fine, has edeges, etc. Really work it. Try again. (submerge it in the water before you work it).

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Greg,
Once again, I've missed the Birch. My trip toady was out my backdoor and up a slough, and there were no birch that I saw... Bummer. I'm assuming, based on my knowledge of the high oil content of birch, and your somewhat set instructions, that this is a demonstration you've used before, and it works. That said, I am looking forward to trying it, along with a chunk left over night in the water, and one soaked, and then frozen, since everything outside is frozen...

OTOH, I do have some new tinders from my kitchen-laboratory. I left a brillo pad in my sink over night, and it soaked all the soap out, so I did the next best thing. I burned it. After shaking it vigorously to remove water, and fluffing it lightly, I was able to light it with a metal match. It took some effort compared to the old, dry. rusty one I had on the counter, but that might have soemthing to do with the rust, and increased area/decreased diameter on the old one.

I also found some beeswax base leather waterproofer that I tried. *I was able to light this spread in tin foil* I tried it on a piece of paper towel, and lit the un-spread paper towel before the waxed towel lit...
smile.gif
. I then tried rubbing it on a piece of the burnt steel wool. Boy, that was easy. Easier than any of the previously mentioned attempts in this post. I guess this means don't stand too close to the fire with newly waterproofed boots on...

Anyways, there's my pyrotechnics for the day. This lack of Birch is becoming annoying, and I may just pull off the highway at the first birch I see tomorrow coming back from work.

Stryver, soon to go hunting for birch...
 
Hi All,

I mentioned earlier the alcohol that foats on water.
First of all, it is n-butanol (normal- or 1-butyl alcohol) not isopropanol as I said.
Second, even though it forms a separate phase on top of H2O it gets saturated quite well with H2O.
Third, when I tried to ignite it on top of the water, I failed.
Therefore, no cigar.....
Still, if I had to pick to carry some 'exotic' liquid tinder, it would be 95% EtOH (~50 ml). Dilute it and use for starting fire , flaming things to sterilize, clean wounds and to raise the mood.

The best to All,

HM

 
Yesterday was the ideal day to try and start a survival fire, nasty!!, medium wind, mid 30s, rain turning to sleet and ice.

I got a mailing envelope with an Xmas present. I puleld it apart and got the lint linke packing material for a try at fire starting.

I went out and set up a small break using a sheet of plywood, leaning against my porch swing. Then I took off the lid of my barbque and proceeded to try to get this stuff to light using flint and steel and a piece of charcloth. I nested the grey material up and after a long time, I got the spark to catch and hold in the charcloth. A short time blowing had the grey material burning quite satisfactorily. Wothout the windbreak I think it would have been a pretty hard chore with just flint and steel, or anytype of simple sparking tool.

------------------
Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Greg,

You would have to want a fire pretty badly to do it that way. The temptation to get out the lighter was great with my fingers freezing. But I knew everyone would pooh pooh the lighter idea and call me a wimp, sooo I kept at it. I was glad however I had no kids around to hear me
smile.gif
.

------------------
Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
The challenge still stands....

Any new takers out there.

ready to try a new tinder and report on your results? Take the tinder challenge....

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Well, it has been covered pretty well. Dry Cat tail works great, non glossy newspaper works good with that (especially if you wrinkle the hell out of it), pine bark fibres, etc. What I havent seen mentioned is gunpowder. Easily obtained from a cartridge.
 
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