Was Suspended from School for Having Leatherman Micra. Seriously?

[Thomas Linton]

Voters in this area typically do not vote in the school board races. So when sane people are not watching, "Zero Tolerance" (i.e. Zero Use of Reason) policies creep and crawl in. Next thing you know, kids are suspended for pointing a finger and saying "Bang" and footballs and softball are banned from recess.

The OP brought a knife to school in clear violation of the schools established rules. People can say "Well it was such a tiny knife", but that's why they have "zero tolerance" policies- so administrators won't be making arbitrary judgements regarding when a kids knife qualifies as a dangerous weapon. If a teacher saw a kid with a small knife and did nothing about it, and if that kid hurt another child with that knife, that teacher's life could be ruined as a result (termination, lawsuit, loss of teaching credentials).

Courts in Ohio have repeatedly struck down local ordinances outlawing, for example, a prohibition on "any knife with a blade 2 and one half inches long or longer," on the grounds that such ordinances are illegally irrational, that is, not rationally related to any legitimate governmental objective..

Was there was an express ruling in this school that all knives are weapons? If so, it was "poor poker" to bring a knife to school. (Any "knives" in the cafeteria? Spoons? Forks? Give me five minutes on a concrete sidewalk and I have a shank.)

If there was no such ruling, there was no "clear violation," just a phobic emotional reaction. Where were the adults?

Kids have reduced civil rights, but the totally arbitrary decision that any knife is a weapon is far worse in a supposed educational institution than a reasoned decision about whether a given implement is a weapon on not.

I would rather defend the result of a thought process -- the quality of the exercise of judgment (which usually has a qualified immunity for individuals under the law) -- than try to defend an institutionalized refusal to exercise judgment. Arguing for a position that makes the judge's skin crawl is also "poor poker" in the long run. You may not even convince state educational authorities:

PROVIDENCE, RI - In an important victory for students' free speech rights, the Rhode Island Department of Education today ordered Portsmouth High School to publish a yearbook photo of a student dressed in a medieval costume. The education commissioner agreed with the American Civil Liberties Union of Rhode Island that school officials improperly used the district's "zero tolerance" weapons policy to reject 17-year-old Patrick Agin's senior portrait because he posed with a prop sword.

"The commissioner's ruling rightly rejects the knee-jerk use of zero tolerance policies by school officials that often run counter to both common sense and students' rights," said ACLU of Rhode Island Executive Director Steven Brown.

 

[DB731]

Don't blame the teachers. Blame the lawsuit culture.

 

[killgar]

Don't blame the teachers. Blame the lawsuit culture.

And disturbed kids. And bad parents whose children cannot be trusted to possess anything sharp or act responsibly.

I think that people who say "What's the big deal, let kids carry pocket knives at school", haven't spent much time in a public school lately.

It's not the "good" kids you have to worry about. But the problem is, teachers and administrators aren't psychic, they can't read kids minds and know which child intends to cause harm to others. Many times when this topic comes up some people will say "When I was a kid we brought guns to school", but do we really want to let kids bring guns to school? Why not? And if kids cannot be trusted to bring firearms to school, why would you trust them to bring knives to school?

Being a teacher is a very tough job these days. Not only do they have to be educators, but they also have to act as law enforcement personnel, looking for danger from both inside the school, and from outside. They are responsible for the safety of large numbers of children. They face the threat of violence from students, and they face the constant threat of lawsuits.

No one just wakes up one day and decides to apply to be a teacher. It's a calling, and people spend many years training to become teachers, and continue that training even after they have become teachers. Many teachers are very dedicated to their students, even to the point of spending their own money to buy students school supplies that the kids can't afford (and no, teachers aren't getting rich being teachers). I guess it's really easy for some people who have never been responsible for the education, and safety, of dozens, or hundreds of children, to judge school personnel, criticize them, and insult their intelligence.

 

[Thomas Linton]

[quoteI think that people who say "What's the big deal, let kids carry pocket knives at school", haven't spent much time in a public school lately.[/quote]

Any evidence zero tolerance reduces violence? Schools being sued can't seem ti find it.

 

[nickortizzle1035]

Reason number 4,935,724 why this planet is doomed. I work in a sporting goods store selling guns, knives and outdoor gear. On occasion coworkers make comments referring to my pocket knives as "weapons" I usually respond with "my 45 is a weapon. This is a tool". In all seriousness, this is 2013 and not 1950. As long as you are in public, people will think anything you have that could remotely harm somebody is dangerous and should not be allowed.

 

[Torm]

You could bring a stick of dynamite to the airport and claim it's just a mining tool...

Thats a ridiculous and unrelated analogy. My point was that knives are not all weapons but rather that they are tools until used otherwise. My comment was directed to the poster I quoted who referred to them as "weapons", categorically, and that's simply incorrect. That isn't a comment on school rules or, for that matter, airport rules.

 

[killgar]

Any evidence zero tolerance reduces violence? Schools being sued can't seem ti find it.

You mentioned exercising judgement in your earlier post, I don't need any university studies or statistics to tell me that it's a bad idea to allow children to bring knives to school these days. My judgement tells me that kids don't need knives at school, and that kids shouldn't be allowed to bring knives to school. As for "evidence", like I mentioned, I've seen "evidence" with my own eyes how dangerous some children can be, the same kids who attend school with my kids.

I wonder, do you have any children attending school these days? Do you have any flesh and blood at risk if children are allowed to bring knives to school?

Do you work for any school? I ask because you seem to take a very casual attitude towards school personnel being sued. I for one don't blame school personnel for being overly cautious in this country and having rules that say "No knives". But I guess it's easy to gamble with other peoples jobs, careers, futures, and finances, by suggesting that their fear of lawsuits is unreasonable.

 

[DB731]

Thats a ridiculous and unrelated analogy. My point was that knives are not all weapons but rather that they are tools until used otherwise. My comment was directed to the poster I quoted who referred to them as "weapons", categorically, and that's simply incorrect. That isn't a comment on school rules or, for that matter, airport rules.

It's just semantics. One could say a weapon is a tool for inflicting violence.

 

[DB731]

Any evidence zero tolerance reduces violence? Schools being sued can't seem ti find it.

Can you point to a case where someone was cut or stabbed in school with an imaginary knife or a knife that was left at home that day?

 

[Torm]

It's just semantics. One could say a weapon is a tool for inflicting violence.

No, it's most definitely not "just semantics". The distinction between tool and weapon is an important one, especially to knife nuts. Agreeing with knives being categorized as weapons does none of us any good and bodes poorly for knife rights in general.

 

[jbmonkey]

Zero tolerance nonsense strikes again.


When I was in school 20 + years ago. Everyone carries a pocket knife. Slip joints back then.....even the teachers carried knives. No one thought twice about it...and never was there a stabbing or knife attack or fight. In fact I think the only knife fight ive ever seen was in a hollywood movie.

Shame people actually think zero tolerance makes anyone safer.

 

[thejeep]

My dad told me a long time ago, " son you know which are the important rules to follow and which ones are ok to to skirt, Don't get caught not following the rules!" "Generally it is more trouble than its worth."

OP your post is typical teenager. Yes i broke a rule. Its not fair. whawhawha. Well next time don't get caught.

And yes i agree the way society is raising kids these days is beyond reproach. No knives, no guns, no fires, no noise makers, no offroad riding, no fun.

Soo what is the propper way to bring change to all this bull ship???

 

[Yo Mama]

ughhh.........

In before the close......I hope

 

[Joeyhoops]

Whats with the "some kids cant have sharp things" last time I checked there hasn't been much school violence with knives and if you're gunna outlaw stuff just because pens are far and away more dangerous than a small knife

 

[DB731]

Zero tolerance nonsense strikes again.


When I was in school 20 + years ago. Everyone carries a pocket knife. Slip joints back then.....even the teachers carried knives. No one thought twice about it...and never was there a stabbing or knife attack or fight. In fact I think the only knife fight ive ever seen was in a hollywood movie.

Shame people actually think zero tolerance makes anyone safer.

So kids with emotional problems magically appeared in the last 20 years? If kids were allowed to bring knives to school, would you volunteer to keep watch over them and be financially liable if one was injured?

Let me ask this: if a kid doesn't bring a knife to school on a given day, is his/her life somehow traumatized from that separation? I mean they ARE back home after school, correct?

 

[Karda]

Zero tolerance nonsense strikes again.


When I was in school 20 + years ago. Everyone carries a pocket knife. Slip joints back then.....even the teachers carried knives. No one thought twice about it...and never was there a stabbing or knife attack or fight. In fact I think the only knife fight ive ever seen was in a hollywood movie.

Shame people actually think zero tolerance makes anyone safer.

Back 20+ years ago parents used to parent. Parents used to teach their children morals, ethics, common sense....and the big one... RESPONSIBILITY....for ones own words and deeds. Passing blame has also become all too common these days.
20+ years ago parents also disciplined their children when wrongdoing was done. Nowadays it is left to teachers, counselors, police officers and the like to teach individuals the consequences for improper thinking and behavior. Zero tolerance may not completely be the answer, but it is better than allowing those irresponsible individuals to run rampant without consequence. One shouldn't blame those tasked with enacting rules or laws without understanding the reasons why they may have had to do so in the first place.

 

[DB731]

No, it's most definitely not "just semantics". The distinction between tool and weapon is an important one, especially to knife nuts. Agreeing with knives being categorized as weapons does none of us any good and bodes poorly for knife rights in general.

Well, the FBI already classifies them as weapons when reporting homicides. They do the same with hands, fists and feet ("personal weapons").

 

[DB731]

Soo what is the propper way to bring change to all this bull ship???

No. Not without some MAJOR changes in the law, such as, well, I won't touch that. The cat is already out of the bag. Bad adults produce bad offspring. And there are plenty of both.

 

[Joeyhoops]

So kids with emotional problems magically appeared in the last 20 years? If kids were allowed to bring knives to school, would you volunteer to keep watch over them and be financially liable if one was injured?

Let me ask this: if a kid doesn't bring a knife to school on a given day, is his/her life somehow traumatized from that separation? I mean they ARE back home after school, correct?

My father who is older than most people on here used to tell me when he brought a gun to school everyone knew he was going hunting after school there was never a court case about it nowadays if you sneeze on someone its a 2 year sentence just look at whats happening with texting

 

[Joeyhoops]

No, it's most definitely not "just semantics". The distinction between tool and weapon is an important one, especially to knife nuts. Agreeing with knives being categorized as weapons does none of us any good and bodes poorly for knife rights in general.

Knives are tools and weapons it depends on circumstance just as guns are tools or weapons its about individuals using things in different ways