Western Model Difference
- Thread starter Troylet
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Thanks!!!
I guess I'd have to change my question then, as I'm looking at a 1989 stag handle no-coating model, however I now realize that it does NOT carry the "W" prefix, it is merely stamped 777. So my question would then have to be in two parts. First: Is "777" the actual model number and not an abbreviation for "W777"? And if so, what THEN would be The difference between The "W77" and The "777"?
The "W77" IS as you state, ".... wooden handle, blade w/o coating" so you're on the money there. Also, is the "W" only there to denote "wooden"?.... as I am also looking at a 1986 "77" with a stag handle, yet there's no prefix letter to indicate "stag" such as an "S" if logic follows!!!
I guess what it boils down to, is what's the difference between the "W77".... "77"... "777"...???
I'm really scratching my head here, so any info would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks!!!
Your 777 is from the Coleman/Western time period. While Coleman did continue with some of Western's previous practices, they did in fact get rather loose with others. One of those was the stock number designations. As an example You'll find many knives with a W proceeding the numbers that came with a handle that was not wood.
Thanks!!!
I had a feeling it was going to come down to the multiple ownership changes.
One last question for anyone who may know.... was there any appreciable differences in quality/craftsmanship between the various manufacturers over the years?
Thanks again!!!
There are lots of stories, about different quality issues cropping up during the Coleman/Western time period. Still there are lots of good knives around from that time period.
After Camillus bought the company at auction in 1991 some patterns were never made. Camillus never produced any Western fixed blade knives with the bifurcated tang. Some people are only interested in the two piece tang knives.
After Camillus bought the company at auction in 1991 some patterns were never made. Camillus never produced any Western fixed blade knives with the bifurcated tang. Some people are only interested in the two piece tang knives.
Dug through some old catalogs. The Western 777 and W77 are different but similar knives. Both look like they started out under the Coleman/Western brand around the mid 1980's. They are both boot knives with 41/2 inch blades made of stainless steel.
The 777 is epoxy coated with a resin plastic grip. Looks like you can get it in any color you want, as long as it is black, (obscure joke involving Henry Ford).
The W77 was finished bright with a resin impregnated wood grip.
When Camillus took over Western they continued to market the W77. They're stock numbers placed a W in front of the original Western stock numbers so this knife shows up as a WW77 on their price sheets.
Interesting Camillus didn't market the 777 under the Western brand, but they offered what appears to be the same knife under their own name as a CP77.
The 777 is epoxy coated with a resin plastic grip. Looks like you can get it in any color you want, as long as it is black, (obscure joke involving Henry Ford).
The W77 was finished bright with a resin impregnated wood grip.
When Camillus took over Western they continued to market the W77. They're stock numbers placed a W in front of the original Western stock numbers so this knife shows up as a WW77 on their price sheets.
Interesting Camillus didn't market the 777 under the Western brand, but they offered what appears to be the same knife under their own name as a CP77.
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Thanks Sac Troop!!!
I truly do appreciate your time and helpfulness!!!
Any thoughts on this 1989 "777" Stag handle? The letter designation (M) 1989 makes it a Coleman/Western blade, however if these were only available in black, black or the ever popular "black" then I'm back to the head scratching!!!
Was it possible that someone could have special ordered it, or did W/C not offer that?
Sorry!!!.... I don't mean to be a bother!!!
Any information you could provide (at your convenience, of couse) would be most appreciated!!!
Thanks so much!!!
I think we're back to the presence of anomalies in the way Coleman/Western handled their marketing. Some of the information I got on these models was from the 1986 Coleman/Western catalog. While a lot of people know that Coleman bought Western from the original owners the Platts family in 1984, not too many people know that one of the conditions of sale was that Western's CEO Harvey Platts stay on for the first two years after the sale to oversee operations. The 1986 catalog IMHO, is the last Western Catalog published. It didn't take Coleman very long to mess up a good thing.
Had an example of a date coded M, (how's that for coincidence), W49 bowie with a stag handle and aluminum pommel. The blade was stamped W49 as well as the original box. It wouldn't surprise me if we are talking about custom ordered knives here. I just don't know one way or the other.
Had an example of a date coded M, (how's that for coincidence), W49 bowie with a stag handle and aluminum pommel. The blade was stamped W49 as well as the original box. It wouldn't surprise me if we are talking about custom ordered knives here. I just don't know one way or the other.
Certainly, I understand completely!!!
And true, there really isn't anyway to know for sure, as I believe you're correct in that we're talking about something that doesn't fit the norm.
That said, thank you, SINCERELY, for all the interesting info and for taking the time to help!!! You have my genuine gratitude!!!
Have a great evening & weekend!!!
And true, there really isn't anyway to know for sure, as I believe you're correct in that we're talking about something that doesn't fit the norm.
That said, thank you, SINCERELY, for all the interesting info and for taking the time to help!!! You have my genuine gratitude!!!
Have a great evening & weekend!!!
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A stag handled 1989 (M) W77 would have either -
a) come out of the custom shop
b) was rehandled by someone else as a custom job after it was purchased
c) made from unused stock on hand sold off to the public after Camillus bought Western in 1991.
My bet is on "C", as I have seen a ton of non-production Westerns sold via fleabay by sellers from Boulder, Longmont, and other Colorado cities, being listed as "from the estate of a former Western employee" or purchased at the Closing Down sale, or simply listed as being "rare" or "unique", although the knives being listed never darkened the door of any Western assembler.
The last real stag or bone handles Westerns came out in 1960. Real stag handled knives had model numbers beginning with a "5", e.g., the 548. Bone stag handled knives had model numbers beginning with a "6", e.g., the 648.
Starting in 1961, Western dropped all use of stag and bone stag in production knives. "5" was dropped from the handle material identification list and "6" was retained, now representing Delrin plastic as the handle material.
Now, let's add to the W77/777 puzzle
The W77 also came in an all black version in 1986 - "J" year code. Not a 777 model number but "the real deal" W77 stamp.
I have both "M" and an "N" date coded 777s as well as an "M" coded W77. There was also a 757, which was an all black version similar to the smaller W75 boot knife.
So this last knife model number would imply that the handle material designator is the TRAILING "7", not the LEADING numeral as is standard for Western knives. The model number should have been 775 not 757, but I guess the marketing folks liked the symmetry of the 757.
As sac troop mentioned, Camillus made their version - the CP77. There was also a CP75, equivalent to the 757 and W75.
Camillus' CP77 also came as the CP77K, which was a paper model number reference only. The "K" indicated that the knives were shipped with kydex sheaths, rather than leather sheaths.
And to add another misshapened piece to the puzzle, I have a WM77, a Westmark stamped 77, probably made for Smokey Mountain Knife Works by Camillus after SMKW took over the Westmark trademark. No proof, just rampant speculation on my part trying to get all the puzzle pieces to fit together with vague coherency.
a) come out of the custom shop
b) was rehandled by someone else as a custom job after it was purchased
c) made from unused stock on hand sold off to the public after Camillus bought Western in 1991.
My bet is on "C", as I have seen a ton of non-production Westerns sold via fleabay by sellers from Boulder, Longmont, and other Colorado cities, being listed as "from the estate of a former Western employee" or purchased at the Closing Down sale, or simply listed as being "rare" or "unique", although the knives being listed never darkened the door of any Western assembler.
The last real stag or bone handles Westerns came out in 1960. Real stag handled knives had model numbers beginning with a "5", e.g., the 548. Bone stag handled knives had model numbers beginning with a "6", e.g., the 648.
Starting in 1961, Western dropped all use of stag and bone stag in production knives. "5" was dropped from the handle material identification list and "6" was retained, now representing Delrin plastic as the handle material.
Now, let's add to the W77/777 puzzle
The W77 also came in an all black version in 1986 - "J" year code. Not a 777 model number but "the real deal" W77 stamp.
I have both "M" and an "N" date coded 777s as well as an "M" coded W77. There was also a 757, which was an all black version similar to the smaller W75 boot knife.
So this last knife model number would imply that the handle material designator is the TRAILING "7", not the LEADING numeral as is standard for Western knives. The model number should have been 775 not 757, but I guess the marketing folks liked the symmetry of the 757.
As sac troop mentioned, Camillus made their version - the CP77. There was also a CP75, equivalent to the 757 and W75.
Camillus' CP77 also came as the CP77K, which was a paper model number reference only. The "K" indicated that the knives were shipped with kydex sheaths, rather than leather sheaths.
And to add another misshapened piece to the puzzle, I have a WM77, a Westmark stamped 77, probably made for Smokey Mountain Knife Works by Camillus after SMKW took over the Westmark trademark. No proof, just rampant speculation on my part trying to get all the puzzle pieces to fit together with vague coherency.
AHA!!!!
Thanks zzyzzogeton!!!
I believe you get the chicken dinner!!!
Sans "fleabay" your story starring "non-Western assemblers" and "collections of former Western employees"... etc., ticks all the boxes in my "777 stag handled mystery"!!!
It all just fits too well for it not to be the case.
With that, I have to assume that the value of these semi-Westerns must surely be negatively affected?
I mean they're beautiful knives, however from a collectors POV, they're not true Westerns!!!.... or am I once again wrong in assuming anything about Western and their infinite iterations?
And NOT a sidenote,
Thanks again for your help!!!
I do appreciate it!!!
Thanks zzyzzogeton!!!
I believe you get the chicken dinner!!!
Sans "fleabay" your story starring "non-Western assemblers" and "collections of former Western employees"... etc., ticks all the boxes in my "777 stag handled mystery"!!!
It all just fits too well for it not to be the case.
With that, I have to assume that the value of these semi-Westerns must surely be negatively affected?
I mean they're beautiful knives, however from a collectors POV, they're not true Westerns!!!.... or am I once again wrong in assuming anything about Western and their infinite iterations?
And NOT a sidenote,
Thanks again for your help!!!
I do appreciate it!!!
We want to see the photo already
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Well, the blade was probably really a Western made blade. The knife would not be what I would consider a "Western produced knife".
As far as collectors are concerned, it would depend on the Western collector. Some collectors will hop on anything and others will only go for "authentic" Western made knives, with the definition of "authentic" having a sliding scale.
As Vit said - Pics please. We'd love to see what you have.
As far as collectors are concerned, it would depend on the Western collector. Some collectors will hop on anything and others will only go for "authentic" Western made knives, with the definition of "authentic" having a sliding scale.
As Vit said - Pics please. We'd love to see what you have.
Thanks for the info!!!
Yeah, I'm swiftly moving toward the conclusion that relative values are as varied as the knives themselves!!!
I've seen sale prices that are all over the board for like items and no lack of buyers!!!
Thanks also for the pic!!!
Those are beautiful!!!... IDK why, but that little W75 really draws my attention!!!
As far as posting pics myself, I'm currently down to only my phone until my kids relinquish control of my laptop and I'm having fits working with the .png files I waa sent!!!
In any event, I'll either figure it out or have them resent as .jpg's and post them forthwith!!!
Thanks again zzyzzogeton, for not only the great info, but the pic as well!!!
Have a blessed Easter!!!
Yeah, I'm swiftly moving toward the conclusion that relative values are as varied as the knives themselves!!!
I've seen sale prices that are all over the board for like items and no lack of buyers!!!
Thanks also for the pic!!!
Those are beautiful!!!... IDK why, but that little W75 really draws my attention!!!
As far as posting pics myself, I'm currently down to only my phone until my kids relinquish control of my laptop and I'm having fits working with the .png files I waa sent!!!
In any event, I'll either figure it out or have them resent as .jpg's and post them forthwith!!!
Thanks again zzyzzogeton, for not only the great info, but the pic as well!!!
Have a blessed Easter!!!
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Thanks, but it was edbeau who provided the picture.
Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Gotta give credit where credit is due.
Oh so it was!!! Thanks for bringing that to my attention!!!
Sorry edbeau!!!
I apologize for the inattentive posting!!! Thanks again for the pic!!!; beautiful knives!!!
While I'm here, I thought I'd ask....In reference to the blanks that were liquidated to the public after Western closed, would these have already been profiled?.... or is that simply an unknown?
I'm not familiar enough with these to know if it's common for blanks to come this way or if it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer or exactly what the standard is, or if there even is one.
I ask because (and once I figure out how to get these pics up, you'll see as well) it sure looks like the profiling on the stag 777 is woefully crooked!!!
I can't imagine a blank would've come from Western in this condition, unless they were also liquidating defective stock.
Maybe stock initially meant for recycling, but caught in the closure???
I find it extremely difficult to believe they'd do something like that, however I also find it difficult to believe that someone would be attempting to sell this knife under the Western "banner" with a flaw in craftsmanship such as this!!!
Like I said, once I can get some pics up, you can judge for yourself if it's truly bad work or merely a photographic aberration!... and I hope you do and then are so good as to share your opinion with me!!!.... that would be most helpful as I really don't know what to do about making an offer!!!... or not!!!
Not asking for value, mind you, just what you think of the craftsmanship etc....!!!
I picked up a 1982 W77 from him (I'll post some pics of that once it arrives) and it looked great.... so IDK!!!.... we shall se!!!
I think I'm gonna request some jpegs for clarity and for posting... seems the prudent thing to do!!!
I'll then, get them up asap!!!
Thanks again!!!!
Sorry edbeau!!!
I apologize for the inattentive posting!!! Thanks again for the pic!!!; beautiful knives!!!
While I'm here, I thought I'd ask....In reference to the blanks that were liquidated to the public after Western closed, would these have already been profiled?.... or is that simply an unknown?
I'm not familiar enough with these to know if it's common for blanks to come this way or if it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer or exactly what the standard is, or if there even is one.
I ask because (and once I figure out how to get these pics up, you'll see as well) it sure looks like the profiling on the stag 777 is woefully crooked!!!
I can't imagine a blank would've come from Western in this condition, unless they were also liquidating defective stock.
Maybe stock initially meant for recycling, but caught in the closure???
I find it extremely difficult to believe they'd do something like that, however I also find it difficult to believe that someone would be attempting to sell this knife under the Western "banner" with a flaw in craftsmanship such as this!!!
Like I said, once I can get some pics up, you can judge for yourself if it's truly bad work or merely a photographic aberration!... and I hope you do and then are so good as to share your opinion with me!!!.... that would be most helpful as I really don't know what to do about making an offer!!!... or not!!!
Not asking for value, mind you, just what you think of the craftsmanship etc....!!!
I picked up a 1982 W77 from him (I'll post some pics of that once it arrives) and it looked great.... so IDK!!!.... we shall se!!!
I think I'm gonna request some jpegs for clarity and for posting... seems the prudent thing to do!!!
I'll then, get them up asap!!!
Thanks again!!!!
Sorry, that should've read "we shall see!!!"
Okay.... jpgs.
I only hope these links work!!!
Apparently Google doesn't support any direct way for Android phones to copy pics to "Clipboard" for pasting elsewhere.
I've never used "Link Sharing" before, so it is what it is.
If these aren't accessible, just let me know and I'll figure out a work around.
Thanks
Signed:
I HATE TECHNOLOGY
https://s.amsu.ng/pyb9Sqli0chN
https://s.amsu.ng/3vCcbvBwoknN
https://s.amsu.ng/9BXk585HOoLN
https://s.amsu.ng/xMiv7KeW2pAN
https://s.amsu.ng/rXzXSJypUINN
https://s.amsu.ng/eKM0dWSm2DdN
I only hope these links work!!!
Apparently Google doesn't support any direct way for Android phones to copy pics to "Clipboard" for pasting elsewhere.
I've never used "Link Sharing" before, so it is what it is.
If these aren't accessible, just let me know and I'll figure out a work around.
Thanks
Signed:
I HATE TECHNOLOGY
https://s.amsu.ng/pyb9Sqli0chN
https://s.amsu.ng/3vCcbvBwoknN
https://s.amsu.ng/9BXk585HOoLN
https://s.amsu.ng/xMiv7KeW2pAN
https://s.amsu.ng/rXzXSJypUINN
https://s.amsu.ng/eKM0dWSm2DdN