Winkler belt knife fails strength tests (GREAT response by Winkler)

I sent Dan Winkler an email with the link to this thread.
He is responsive to questions or problems with his knives.
 
straightwalls said:
Twindog, can I ask the source you purchased this knife from?
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I purchased it here secondhand from someone the forum. The seller is a really good person, and the knife was exactly as described. I don't have any issue with the seller.

This isn't a custom Winkler knife -- the one's he makes himself. I'm sure his custom knives are as good as their reputation.

I paid $305. It wasn't new.
 
Twindog said:
I purchased it here secondhand from someone the forum. The seller is a really good person, and the knife was exactly as described. I don't have any issue with the seller.

This isn't a custom Winkler knife -- the one's he makes himself. I'm sure his custom knives are as good as their reputation.

I paid $305. It wasn't new.
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Thank you for the response, just curious about it is all, interesting case here and I hope it is resolved and you are not out your 305 bones.
 
Just stating facts(emotionless ;)) - this blade is quite ductile, thus lacks of both strength & toughness. Whenever you see a blade easily bend with very a little of elasticity/spring, usually mean high ferrite & low martensite, aka hardening and or over heated tempering or massive RA% (for high alloy steels) problem.
 
This is an authentic Winkler II Belt Knife in Micarta. See the difference? I believe you got a fake.



 
The older WK II Belt Knives I've seen have the rounded ricasso like the one belonging to the OP.
 
Twindog said:
I have and use quite a few knives. Over the years I’ve gotten a feel for how well a knife will perform. I look for a nice balance between toughness (resistance to breaking, chipping or cracking), strength (resistance to deformation, rolling and bending) and wear resistance.


I just bought this Winkler II belt knife (the consumer version, not a custom), just because of the recent buzz (mention in the New York Times). It was a secondhand knife, but not used. The factory edge was sadly dull, which to me is a sign that someone at the factory just didn’t give a darn.


The seller wasn’t sure, but thought the steel is 5160, an extremely tough, low-alloy steel. I think he is right. Because toughness was going to be the main feature of this knife, I decided to give it a test of tip strength, the same way that Benchmade tested its 162 in S30V (stabbing a piece of softwood and bending the blade sideways). I was less aggressive than Benchmade. I had no intention of turning this into a destruction test. I just wanted to assure myself that the blade had a decent amount of strength to go with its toughness. The tip on this knife bent quickly and easily.


Well, this was not a knife that I was going to keep. And I certainly could not sell it to someone else, so I decided to test it some more. But nothing too hard. I wanted to see how strong (not tough) the full blade was, not just the tip. I placed the damaged tip on the floor and held the handle off the floor a few inches with my right hand. I put lateral pressure on the blade by pressing down with my heel. Basically, I stepped on the blade while holding the handle. I’ve had other knives in this category easily take this kind of pressure — which was way less than my weight (150 pounds). This blade bent easily.


To take it a bit further, I tried to see if it would cut a nail in half. It wouldn’t. The nail basically got a shiny spot, but the blade edge dented severely, pretty much conforming to the diameter of the nail.


This blade may be super tough, but it has almost no strength at all.




DSC02256_zpsd9u26i3d.jpg



DSC02258_zpsawmibqz4.jpg



DSC02259_zpsnsp4z6xk.jpg



DSC02261_zpsqwv2kgcn.jpg
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I can't speak to what happened to that knife. It looks like it wasn't heat treated at all. Here's a knife that was way less than 300 bucks:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1305088-ZT-0180-Hard-Use


And I don't know how much a knife from Bluntcut Metalworks costs, but I bet it's less than 300:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1309186-Cutting-nail-(size-16d)-test

And both of those knives handle that sort of testing with flying colors.
 
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Twindog,

Wow! what a piece of crap! First let me say if you will send me your address I'll send you a new knife. Feel free to test it too. ( I would prefer you not cut a nail, that seems a little extreme and I don't really intend this model to cut steel. If you need to cut steel I make a Rescue axe designed to cut sheet metal that would probably hold up.)

About the time that knife was made was when I implemented some new inspection and testing procedures. As with that knife, we had a few come through with similar problems. This came from some issues with heat treating. That knife was most likely made from 52-100. I found out that this particular batch needed to soak in the high temp salt for no less than 1 full hour. We had only been going for about 15 min at heat and a full run of about 10 knives came out soft. I thought we had gotten them all but I guess not. Basically you tested a knife that had an improper heat treat.

We make more knives that I can possibly do all myself. It also has taken a while to get the guy's to a point that they can recognize the possible problems that can arise that are not visual. Each blade is now checked after heat treating and before the handle goes on to assure it is up to standards. There may be one that slips through now and then but it is rare. Humans make mistakes but we are trying to eliminate all the problems we can. However when one does come up we will take care of the problem.

Daniel
 
BAd HT. No doubt about it. It would be interesting to have an Rc test done near the edge. I bet it is in the 40's.
 
DWinkler said:
Twindog,

Wow! what a piece of crap! First let me say if you will send me your address I'll send you a new knife. Feel free to test it too. ( I would prefer you not cut a nail, that seems a little extreme and I don't really intend this model to cut steel. If you need to cut steel I make a Rescue axe designed to cut sheet metal that would probably hold up.)

About the time that knife was made was when I implemented some new inspection and testing procedures. As with that knife, we had a few come through with similar problems. This came from some issues with heat treating. That knife was most likely made from 52-100. I found out that this particular batch needed to soak in the high temp salt for no less than 1 full hour. We had only been going for about 15 min at heat and a full run of about 10 knives came out soft. I thought we had gotten them all but I guess not. Basically you tested a knife that had an improper heat treat.

We make more knives that I can possibly do all myself. It also has taken a while to get the guy's to a point that they can recognize the possible problems that can arise that are not visual. Each blade is now checked after heat treating and before the handle goes on to assure it is up to standards. There may be one that slips through now and then but it is rare. Humans make mistakes but we are trying to eliminate all the problems we can. However when one does come up we will take care of the problem.

Daniel
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Well there's your answer. Can't ask for much more than that. :)
 
DWinkler said:
Twindog,

Wow! what a piece of crap! First let me say if you will send me your address I'll send you a new knife. Feel free to test it too. ( I would prefer you not cut a nail, that seems a little extreme and I don't really intend this model to cut steel. If you need to cut steel I make a Rescue axe designed to cut sheet metal that would probably hold up.)

About the time that knife was made was when I implemented some new inspection and testing procedures. As with that knife, we had a few come through with similar problems. This came from some issues with heat treating. That knife was most likely made from 52-100. I found out that this particular batch needed to soak in the high temp salt for no less than 1 full hour. We had only been going for about 15 min at heat and a full run of about 10 knives came out soft. I thought we had gotten them all but I guess not. Basically you tested a knife that had an improper heat treat.

We make more knives that I can possibly do all myself. It also has taken a while to get the guy's to a point that they can recognize the possible problems that can arise that are not visual. Each blade is now checked after heat treating and before the handle goes on to assure it is up to standards. There may be one that slips through now and then but it is rare. Humans make mistakes but we are trying to eliminate all the problems we can. However when one does come up we will take care of the problem.

Daniel
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Thanks, Daniel.

That would explain it. I don't cut nails with my knives, I just did it in this case because the knife was already shot. It's a beautiful knife to handle. The design is awesome. I liked it right away. But I could tell that the steel was off, which is why I began, gently at first, to see if my intuition was correct.

I appreciate your kind offer.
 
Nice. That looked so crazy soft it was like something from an alternate reality.

I love handmade stuff vs. mass produced and I've seen human imperfections creep in before. Sometime they add character and other times it's a disaster.

Really glad to see you'll be getting a proper example of this knife.
 
Attractive and very well designed knife IMO, I love the scalloped scales too. Happy endings are great.
 
Daniel Winkler already contacted me and is sending a replacement.

I actually didn't ask for or expect this service because it was a secondhand knife. Nice to run into a knife maker who stands behind his work, no matter what.
 
Lol, I like that the maker is able to call a spade a spade and is willing to stand behind his product. Sometimes things don't go right. It happens.
 
Mr. Winkler,

I don't know if you got my emails regarding this in the past as I've never gotten a response from you. basically, based on your pricing I have an issue you how your knives are sharpened. for $350 a knife I expect an edge better than this. notice how the edge curves down towards the plunge? theis makes that part of the knife virtually impossible and I'd have to take out a lot of material just to straighten it up. This is off topic but I figured I'll post this since my emails were unanswered.


 
I am thoroughly impressed , I just recently bought my first Winkler tad edition belt knife, and after seeing this I was a little bit worried. But Daniel just made me a happy and soon to be a multiple Winkler knives buyer, I have been looking to get a knife for each of my kids as they graduate high school , something that will last a life time and is made with care and integrity. And I believe I have now found that knife maker.
Well done Sir.
 
Great response by the maker. Backing up a production knife. 52100 should make a fantastic tool.
 
knife chop said:
Mr. Winkler,

I don't know if you got my emails regarding this in the past as I've never gotten a response from you. basically, based on your pricing I have an issue you how your knives are sharpened. for $350 a knife I expect an edge better than this. notice how the edge curves down towards the plunge? theis makes that part of the knife virtually impossible and I'd have to take out a lot of material just to straighten it up. This is off topic but I figured I'll post this since my emails were unanswered.
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I'm unsure if you own a Winkler and are just using someone else's photos for reference, or if you are just complaining.
 
DAVE_M said:
I'm unsure if you own a Winkler and are just using someone else's photos for reference, or if you are just complaining.
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I did use someone's photo for reference and I owned and sold a Winkler belt knife at some point with the same exact issue.
 
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