Zero Tolerance in School: Does the Punishment Always Fit the Crime?

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FRIZ

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FOX News
Thursday, October 27, 2005

Zero Tolerance in School: Does the Punishment Always Fit the Crime?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173755,00.html

LOS ANGELES — Danielle Brinkman was a model student at Rowland High School (search) — straight A's, perfect attendance since kindergarten and a member of the choir. So her teachers and fellow students were shocked when she was expelled for bringing a knife to school.

Brinkman didn't use the knife on anyone, but school officials say she violated the zero-tolerance policy (search) and came down hard on the high school junior, tossing her out for being a danger to her classmates.

"We still had what we considered to be a very serious offense," said school Superintendent Maria Ott. "We have to look at the entire student body and look at what we believe in that particular case is the appropriate action to take."

Brinkman says she woke up late for school and put on her work pants, which had a knife in the front pocket that she uses to open boxes at her supermarket job. She says administrators overreacted.

"I didn't expect that," she said. "It seemed so harsh for something that was important, but it … I didn't kill anybody, you know."

Her parents agreed, saying the punishment didn't fit the crime. After their daughter was transferred to another high school and went through a long legal battle, the court finally sided with the Brinkmans and allowed her to return to Rowland.

California is among the many states that have enacted stricter school violence-related standards because of the spate of school shootings in recent years — like the 1999 Columbine massacre (search) in Colorado. But, critics say, sometimes the rules go too far.
 
Sad commentary that the innocent get punished for the evil deeds of the guity. Back in the fifties when I was in grade school almost every boy carried a pocket knife and nobody would even give it a second thought.
 
My son was talking about zero-tolerance policies just a couple hours ago. He said that it actually seems to reduce discipline. The teachers have only two choices, get some harmless kid expelled or totally ignore his infractions. After seeing a few too many horrible miscariages of justice a lot of teachers just start looking the other way on anything short of gang violence.

It really is stupid. A violent kid could just push someone down the stairs or hit them with a baseball bat from the gym and do more harm than is likely with a pocket knife. They should really draw the line at firearms or blades longer than 3 inches. Of course threatening someone changes the rules.
 
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Ya know, a innocent working girl got busted, meanwhile a real deliquient is still walking around with a knife (a la, my school)
 
Totally insane. This type of stuff perpetuates the idea that owning and carrying a knife makes you a crirminal. Kids are being sent the wrong message. Home school looks better and better in light of such events.

I'm 25, so I don't remember a time when everyone carried a knife to school. However, when I was in 5th grade, our teacher let myself and 2 or 3 other students bring in a couple of bayonets to show everyone when we were studying WWII. No one got stabbed and it was pretty cool. I seriously doubt that would happen now.
 
LOL, one time an Army Guard recruiter came into my old high school's Junior ROTC unit to guest lecture, and they wouldn't let him bring his leatherman (They left it at the desk) or his rifles (He and his team came in period dress as a Revolutionary War minuteman, Union artilleryman, WWI doughboy, WWII infantryman, Vietnam infantryman, and also a current infantryman.) It was terribly ironic because they had A TANK parked outside and nobody said anything about it. But God forbid they bring a FLINTLOCK RIFLE into the building.
 
Obviously, you can shape the moral values of bad natured people by outlawing a weapon. Certainly a delinquent with crime on their mind would never dream of breaking a school rule or state law regarding weapons. Reminds me of the time I was suspended in 8th grade for 10 days for being caught with a swiss army knife I had forgotten was in my pocket. I was unfortunate enough to have this fall out in class. This was the tiny 3 piece models that you can get for $10 just about anywhere. Boy I'm glad they did that. The principal was shocked to find the terrifying harbinger of death and evil I had on me.
 
digdeep said:
Sad commentary that the innocent get punished for the evil deeds of the guity. Back in the fifties when I was in grade school almost every boy carried a pocket knife and nobody would even give it a second thought.
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Indeed....... This knife prohibition started in the '80s and has come to a head since the '90s largely due too increased ubanization and the psycotic behavior of less than a handful of very disturbed children (who were not being watched by their parents :barf: - Columbine, etc.

I carried a slip joint all through school, graduated in '79. Many of my teachers and principles carried too. Inapropriate behavior was delt with on an individual basis - innocent until proven guilty type of mindset.
 
Zero Tolerance serves only to relieve administrators of the responsibility of making a decision based on sound judgement. They can simply throw their hands in the air and recite the policy. Smells like chickensh*t.
 
in the 6th grade I brought a gun to school. I had asked my teacher the day before if it was ok to do so. He said yes it was ok. So the next day I hauled it out and stepped up in front of the class to begin talking about it. I looked over at my teacher and saw that his eyes were big and round. He asked me to put it back in the bag and step outside the room with him. So I did, I learned that I could be in some pretty big trouble. It turned out that I wasn't, according to law someone can bring a gun to school as long as it was civil war era and the intent was to show it for educational purposes. Also the teacher I had asked the day before though I had said gum not gun. That really didnt make sence to me but oh well. So theres my big story on the zero tolerance policy.

Also I did bring a knife to school and used it to open up a computer. The teacher that was with me didnt say anything about it. She was one of the better ones. My favorite teacher in fact. She slapped one of the boys that was mouthing off to her and he was more respectful after that. I thought that was pretty funny. ;)
 
I had this disscusion just a few days ago with a teacher and a few fellow classmates. I had the arguement that I could just as easily do bodily harm to another human being with items such as a hammer from shop class or a meter stick. Even the text books that we carry to class every day could easily have enough force to cause major bodily harm. And then it went right down the crapper when someone felt the need to express the opinon that knives are only good for weapons.:mad: the only ones that backed me on the marvelus joys of carrying a knife were a few farm boys(thanks guys).

Well that was fun, but more on topic now. I think that we should be able to carry sub 2'' blade knives to school, but only after taking some sort of psychiatric ecaluaton to weed out the real crazies.Good thread:thumbup:
 
It's sad, but at the begining of the year our vice principal was going over the handbook, and brought up a story just like that. A guy last year came to school with a box cutter he used for work (worked in a convenience store.) He found it in his pocket, pulled it out to make sure he was holding what he thought he was holding. Some pussy saw him and reported him, and he was expelled. He was apparently a model student. The VP agreed with us that it was extreme and unjust, but she had to follow regulations, or risk lawsuits.

I like tgw's idea of sub-2" knives. At that size they aren't very threatening, and it would make me feel a lot better if I didn't have to worry about leaving my little folder on my pocket.
 
Jeez, but that story sounds familiar now. Am currently getting raped by school administration...
 
This is just plain sad. I carried a pocket knife every year of high school and that was only about 10 years ago. It is sad when they make a blanket rule. Basically it is the result of two different things. Number one, our society is extremely scared because everyone has become too letigious. Everyone is looking for a quick and easy buck to the point they are willing to sue people that try and do the right thing, but simply make a mistake. Two, people are too scared to take a stand. To say this isn't right and simply do what is right.
 
No, the punishment rarely fits the crime. I am a model student, except I happen to like knives, and the fact that mine was legally in a gray area cost me. I shouldn't have stepped into the gray area to begin with, but I do not believe in any way that zero tolerance policies are anything close to reasonable.
 
I was in high school in the late 80s (OMG, it's been almost 20 years...), the day of our final exam for grade 12 photography the teacher (whom most of us had had in lower grades for either art, commercial art or photography for 2 or 3 years in a row) gave us a speech about how well he expected us all to do (mainly so he wouldn't have to put up with the trouble makers of the bunch anymore).

While he was known for his sense of humour it was still mostly the usual "blah, blah, blahdy-blah", not sure if anyone knew ahead of time where he was going with it but as he talked he slowly made his way over to a tarp covering something on the floor he'd refused to let anyone near at the start of class. He finished his speech by flipping the tarp up, picking up a LARGE gas chain saw, starting it up (I can still remember how shocked I was by just how DAMN LOUD the thing was) and proceeded to walk around threatening all of the class 1 table at a time (we sat at large wooden table, maybe 4-6 students per table) with it "You studied right? You're going to pass right? I'm not going to have to put up with your goofing around anymore right?, RIGHT?". All of this while he kept revving the saw & the room filled with smoke & fumes... It took maybe 20mins for the last of us to stop laughing & settle down enough to start the exam, I don't remember ANYONE in that class doing less then 75% on the test.

To this day it stands as the most memorable single moment of all the years I spent in any school at any time. Honestly I don't think anyone ever complained about him, it was just "Shovy" (our nickname for him) being Shovy. And yeah, I've carried some kind of pocket knife off & on (mostly on) from public school on up, heck I used to be able to jimmy the lock on the high school's elevator (5 floor building) with my grandfather's old electrican's knife I inherited when he passed away, never did get caught doing it.

Zero tolerance creates more problems then it solves, it helps break down guide structure by giving teachers an easy way out, they're supposed to help kids figure out the difficult things in life aren't they? (And I don't mean Calculus) How are going to be role models if all they are allowed to do is blindly follow rules?

Rant off.
 
stevekt said:
Zero Tolerance serves only to relieve administrators of the responsibility of making a decision based on sound judgement. They can simply throw their hands in the air and recite the policy. Smells like chickensh*t.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. Zero tolerance rules are ridiculous and should be challenged at every opportunity.

Scott
 
I actually lucked out due to the zero tolerance rules at my school. I regularly carry a knife everywhere, school included(stupid i suppose) with a 3" blade. Well, my friend was looking at it under the table and was trying to unlock to close it and dropped the open knife on the floor. my debate teacher looked right at me and asked what it was, i still dont know if he saw it cause it feel on the otherside of a bookshelf which obscured his view. I just shrugged and he never said anything about it. The guy who dropped it carries a balisong to school which is stupid cause im pretty sure that carry in WA is illegal.
 
Im in high school, and i agree the zero tolerances are bullshit. they are ways for the administators to shirk decisionmaking that can upset people. Just a few days ago about 40 minutes into school i realized i had my knife in my pocket. the clip is a givaway so i was lucky. I am also a model student and i would definantly be expelled.

We have plenty of far worse problems at our school. We have daily houston vs New Orleans gang fights that sometimes have up to 40 people.

i think punishments should be on an individual basis and not a blanket rule that screw over the onnocent ones.

Lee
 
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