ZT0560 prices: what am I missing?

skorpyd · Mar 16, 2012

Asking what the market will bear is not greed. It's the free market. If there is a willing buyer and a willing seller. There is no greed.

Because someone thinks it is excessive does not make it so.

I am not willing to pay the current prices, but I don't call someone that makes a profit in the free market greedy. I salute them. The day we can no longer do this we cease to be free.

jimmer_5 · Mar 16, 2012

philwar said:
I've been as stoked as anyone about the ZT0560/0561 from the moment they were announced. They are now for sale, offered in lots of places, but out of stock.
They're also being offered for sale here on BF, but for prices way above retail. Is their scarceness the only reason for these inflated prices or is there another reason I'm unaware of?

Phil - This kind of thing happens all the time. A hot new product comes out, and demand is high and supply is still relatively low. Several of the people who get the product realize that the market will bear a higher price, and they flip their item for a profit. It happens all the time, and prices generally stabilize 3-6 months after initial release.

powernoodle said:
Even at $260, for me its way too spendy for what you are getting.

This statement surprises me. Can you please explain further? I suppose it's obvious that I disagree, but I am curious as to your reasoning. I am beginning to feel that we undercharge for our products, and as a result, people seem to undervalue them.

dcycleman · Mar 16, 2012

A free market is not greed. Too expensive?, don't buy it. Prices will adjust when demand goes down. Anything else is a form of socialism or communism

-Ranger- · Mar 16, 2012

neverdie36 said:
The point of Minimum Advertised Pricing is so dealers can't undercut each other and force people to sell at virtually no profit.

MAP just means that they can't sell BELOW that price. They can charge however much above that they want.

As far as I'm aware, retailers can usually sell MAP restricted items at whatever price they want, but they cannot advertise a price lower than the minimal advertisable price in print or online. That is sometimes the reason you see an add that says "Price too low to advertise". But this may vary depending on the agreement with the manufacturer.

philwar · Mar 16, 2012

Guys,

Thx for all the replies, my question certainly stirred something, and that was not my intention. I honestly was worried that the models offered for sale were somehow special editions or something. I am glad that $260 is still retail. I will wait till stock reaches normal levels, even if takes another year. My XM-18 will just somehow have to see me through.

MRaymond · Mar 16, 2012

jimmer_5 said:
I am beginning to feel that we undercharge for our products, and as a result, people seem to undervalue them.

The prices are just fine Jimmer, no need to talk about doing anything drastic now

jimmer_5 · Mar 16, 2012

philwar said:
Guys,

Thx for all the replies, my question certainly stirred something, and that was not my intention. I honestly was worried that the models offered for sale were somehow special editions or something. I am glad that $260 is still retail. I will wait till stock reaches normal levels, even if takes another year. My XM-18 will just somehow have to see me through.

Just to be clear, $260 is the Minimum Advertised Price (MAP), which is the lowest price we allow our product to be sold at. $325 is the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP).

Anything up to $325 should be seen as normal and not out of the ordinary. There have been a lot of retailers that chose to make these knives available at the lowest price we allow, but that does not mean that this should be the norm.

-Ranger- · Mar 16, 2012

This is an interesting conversation.

I have no problem with someone selling any item at a profit. Hell; if someone offered me $400 cash for the $260 dollar knife in my pocket, I'd probably sell it too, it'd be stupid not too if you can get another one for $260. My dad always used to say, "Everything I own is for sale at the right price."

That being said; that does not seem to be the case here. I suspect that the majority of the angst people feel towards those flipping the knives for a profit is not so much directed that the fact that they are selling the knives at a price that the market will bear. But more at the fact that these people took up space on a pre-order list with the intent of flipping the blade when demand was high, rather than leave room on the list for someone that really wanted the blade.

There are always going to be those guys that have to have the newest toy before everyone else so they are willing to shell out the extra money for bragging rights. So resale amounts will spike for a short while, then stabilize back down at what the rest of us paid for ours. But in the meantime, I'm sure it kind of sticks in the craw of those that did not get on a pre-order list right away and are being forced to wait while the flippers make their money. It is pretty well known that the practice is somewhat frowned-upon. Has nothing to do with communism or free market; it's about bumping real fans of the knife to make a buck.

Personally, I could care less. It's your knife, do with it as you please. But I suspect there is more at play here than basic supply and demand causing the complaints.

richw · Mar 16, 2012

ranger232 said:
Yes,sir. That's what it is, alright.:grumpy:

No, its not profiteering.

You know what the funny part is, if they must made the MSRP (btw, S stands for Suggested) say $500 no one would call it gouging or profiteering when people sold it for $400. It isn't profiteering or price gouging when people sell things above MSRP, but it is amazing how upset some people get when goods are sold above MSRP.

verminous · Mar 16, 2012

singularity35 said:
Definition of GREED

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed.

Asking for what the market will bear seems to be an excessive desire for money. Therefore greed, no?

That doesn't even make sense. I bought a new car last year. It was the second to the bottom of the line. I could probably scrape by by driving a mid 90s ford escort. Is it greed that I want a car nicer than one that is junk but will get me from place to place? Your definition is saying that to have anything more than is abolutely necesary for any circumstance is greed. That isn't so.

XxdrpxX · Mar 16, 2012

That being said; that does not seem to be the case here. I suspect that the majority of the angst people feel towards those flipping the knives for a profit is not so much directed that the fact that they are selling the knives at a price that the market will bear. But more at the fact that these people took up space on a pre-order list with the intent of flipping the blade when demand was high, rather than leave room on the list for someone that really wanted the blade.

This is right on the button. Im not mad at retailers selling at msrp, it's the tools that are creating the demand artificially by buying up available stock, for the only purpose of flipping the knife. I've seen them on a certain auction go for as much as 500 now. There's a sucker born every minute. I think KAI is very fair in Thier prices. Too bad the inflation doesn't go back in Thier pockets.

DapperDan · Mar 16, 2012

This is just my opinion but I feel the 0560 is just as well made as my Umnumzaan or my production xm-18 and we all know what they sell for. So even at 325.00 I think this knife is a good deal and 260.00 is a bargain. YMMV

singularity35 · Mar 16, 2012

verminous said:
That doesn't even make sense. I bought a new car last year. It was the second to the bottom of the line. I could probably scrape by by driving a mid 90s ford escort. Is it greed that I want a car nicer than one that is junk but will get me from place to place? Your definition is saying that to have anything more than is abolutely necesary for any circumstance is greed. That isn't so.

Not greed in the car's case but that is a totally different analogy. I'm talking about making a profit. Some call it free market some call it enterprising. Whatever they call it, it's not from the goodness of their hearts.

Apec · Mar 16, 2012

00ChevyScott said:
Hmm curious about this. It's got Elmax, both sides are 3D machined, it's got a titanium framelock, KVT pivot, and it's based on an excellent Hinderer design. Why would that be considered overpriced at $260?

Back in 2009, I got my non-blem ZT 0301 from a dealer for 189$ shipped (blems went for 165 at the time I believe). The knife isn't overpriced at its MAP, but some people know that better deals for the same knife can be had below MAP.

Give it a few months, or even a year or two. Prices will stabilize. I never buy knives on release date unless they're preorder sprints.

00ChevyScott · Mar 16, 2012

Apec said:
Back in 2009, I got my non-blem ZT 0301 from a dealer for 189$ shipped (blems went for 165 at the time I believe). The knife isn't overpriced at its MAP, but some people know that better deals for the same knife can be had below MAP.

Give it a few months, or even a year or two. Prices will stabilize. I never buy knives on release date unless they're preorder sprints.

The 0300 series is still well worth the money even at $272.

presz · Mar 16, 2012

XM Folder Retail Prices

XM-18 3" Production Model $385.00
XM-18 3.5" Production Model $385.00
XM-24 Production $550.00

Most of these sell for almost twice retail all day every day, just because people will pay the price.

This guy won't but many will.

Ain't America great. Free enterprise at its best "what ever the market will bear".

Many on here should take a look at Sparks "You might be a dealer if " thread.

My favorite one is "you buy knives with the express purpose to turn around and resell them at a profit".

To me it looks like a lot of that has been going on with the 0560/0561.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=746&a=23

verminous · Mar 16, 2012

singularity35 said:
Not greed in the car's case but that is a totally different analogy. I'm talking about making a profit. Some call it free market some call it enterprising. Whatever they call it, it's not from the goodness of their hearts.

Well whether some people like it or not, it's the system that we have and it's the best that's been had by anyone so far. I doubt that if we lived in a country that had the power to tell it's residents how much they could sell a knife for, that they would even allow their residents to have knives.

00ChevyScott · Mar 16, 2012

verminous said:
Well whether some people like it or not, it's the system that we have and it's the best that's been had by anyone so far. I doubt that if we lived in a country that had the power to tell it's residents how much they could sell a knife for, that they would even allow their residents to have knives.

Nobody here is arguing or mad about that. The thing many are mad about (myself included) is the people that went out and bought up as many of these as possible just to resell at higher prices. I don't have a problem with someone who bought one and didn't like it and wants to sell it at the current market value. That's his/her right to do so. I have a big problem with the guys out there buying them up just to rip other people off either on the classifieds here. I know that's how businesses work, but this website isn't a business. Like was posted above, if you want to do that, become a dealer. The member classifieds are NOT for that BS.

PolygonalGuy · Mar 16, 2012

I deal in antiquarian books and it is a cut throat market. A limited signed deluxe run or 72 copies will retail for 179.00. It will sell out within minutes of its launch. I can sell it 750.00 2 months later. Does this make me bad?

dcycleman · Mar 17, 2012

PolygonalGuy said:
I deal in antiquarian books and it is a cut throat market. A limited signed deluxe run or 72 copies will retail for 179.00. It will sell out within minutes of its launch. I can sell it 750.00 2 months later. Does this make me bad?

No it doesn't , it makes you smart