12c27... why not more love?

rustyrazor

rustyrazor

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Oct 13, 2011
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as the title states... how come more people aren't using this steel? It is big in europe, but hasn't seem to have caught on over here as much. After doing a lot of fairly in depth searches for a replacement hard use stainless I took a chance on it a couple years ago and have made quite a few knives out of it and i couldn't be happier. This stuff gets scary sharp and holds an edge fairly respectably. More important it's easy to sharpen in the field, which i think is sooo much more important than having a steel that will hold an edge twice as long, but the normal user can't touch up him/herself. I sell mostly to military guys and they can go a long time in the bush without access to their lansky kit or something similar and one of the most common complaints they had was the inablilty to touch up some steels with rudimentary tools so i think this is almost the perfect steel for their needs. The last point and the big selling point for me was the toughness... this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips and can take a beating that would put a lot of non stainless steels to shame, so i was wondering why it gets overlooked so often by makers.
 
rustyrazor said:
as the title states... how come more people aren't using this steel? It is big in europe, but hasn't seem to have caught on over here as much. After doing a lot of fairly in depth searches for a replacement hard use stainless I took a chance on it a couple years ago and have made quite a few knives out of it and i couldn't be happier. This stuff gets scary sharp and holds an edge fairly respectably. More important it's easy to sharpen in the field, which i think is sooo much more important than having a steel that will hold an edge twice as long, but the normal user can't touch up him/herself. I sell mostly to military guys and they can go a long time in the bush without access to their lansky kit or something similar and one of the most common complaints they had was the inablilty to touch up some steels with rudimentary tools so i think this is almost the perfect steel for their needs. The last point and the big selling point for me was the toughness... this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips and can take a beating that would put a lot of non stainless steels to shame, so i was wondering why it gets overlooked so often by makers.
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Because it's not a trendy "exotic" super steel. Fashion sells.
 
rustyrazor said:
That's exactly as i saw it as well... great steel, but out of fashion with the lastest trends.
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I think trends and fashion have much to do with it. I have noticed over the past few years that steels which were once thought of as high grade, or "super steels" are now looked at as common or even lesser steels.

I remember when CPM S30V was the be-all end-all super steel. I now see people writing comments about how they should not have to pay so much for a knife that uses such an ordinary steel. Even 154 CM, which was once thought of as a high grade steel, is now looked at by some as almost crap steel (at least that's the impression that I get).
 
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I think you'll see a lot more love for fine-carbide steels in both the Traditional and Outdoors sub-forums. In the latter specifically, plenty of love for Moras and Opinels, both of which use 12C27.

My sense that popularity among US makers is an artifact of history and familiarity. Buck, Case and (no gone) Schrade all use (or used) American made 420HC. Prior to 420HC, Buck used 440C and 425Mod and Schrade used 440A. In all cases, the pros are well known and accepted just as you describe: easy to sharpen on crude stones, very tough, takes a fine edge. Additionally, like 12C27, it can be fine blanked, thus is cost effective for mass production. Having used both a lot, I can't tell any difference between Bucks 420HC and Opinel's Sandvik 12C27 - both hardened to around 58RC.

My sense is that the General forum here is mostly focused on so-called high-end one-hand openers - the BMW sport sedans of the knife world in which pursuit of super ultra is the goal in and of itself, regardless of actual field use.

Interesting thread in the Outdoor sub-forum in which a path from high-end knives to more basic knives as a natural evolution path for work in the bush.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1243116-Mora-Pro-Robust
 
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I wish it was shown more love too...I enjoy using it a lot more than higher end steels like s30v. As you said, ease of sharpening is more important than edge retention. At least, in my opinion.
 
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With the Sandvik steels, I find 14C28N to be better, and far more prevalent. 12C27 seems to be more popular with traditional knives, and stainless straight razors. It was, after all, designed specifically as a razor blade steel.
 
They should rename it to 9000c9000. Higher numbers are better so it would sell better......right?
 
Yeah. Where the hell is M391? :mad: M390 has been at the top of the heap long enough. It's time to move it to the junk steel list! ;)
 
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As long as I have M390, 204P, M4 and CPM 3V..I'm all set for just about anything. Steel snob.
 
I've had positive experiences with my 12C27 and 14C28N knives. I can sacrifice some edge retention if it translates to ease of sharpening.

That Sandvik steel is tough stuff and I won't hesitate to pick up another knife that uses it.
 
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ebidis said:
Because it's not a trendy "exotic" super steel. Fashion sells.
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Okay but this flies in the face of the fact that a ton of the most popular hard use woods fixed blades use 1095 or another relatively old school high carbon or tool steel.

I liked Sandvick okay in the Skyline I had. I sure would like to see more sandvick steels in replace of 8cr. I'd pay a little more for it.
 
rustyrazor said:
as the title states... how come more people aren't using this steel? It is big in europe, but hasn't seem to have caught on over here as much. After doing a lot of fairly in depth searches for a replacement hard use stainless I took a chance on it a couple years ago and have made quite a few knives out of it and i couldn't be happier. This stuff gets scary sharp and holds an edge fairly respectably. More important it's easy to sharpen in the field, which i think is sooo much more important than having a steel that will hold an edge twice as long, but the normal user can't touch up him/herself. I sell mostly to military guys and they can go a long time in the bush without access to their lansky kit or something similar and one of the most common complaints they had was the inablilty to touch up some steels with rudimentary tools so i think this is almost the perfect steel for their needs. The last point and the big selling point for me was the toughness... this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips and can take a beating that would put a lot of non stainless steels to shame, so i was wondering why it gets overlooked so often by makers.
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ebidis nailed this one. I absolutely love 12c27. People just seem to get off on "the new best thing". Most people couldnt tell the difference between 420j, 1095, and s35vn if the blade wasnt marked.
 
I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with that sandvik variety. I think what we are seeing is very much a flavor of the week syndrome in knives especially in regards to blade steels. From what i have seen very little of a particular steels popularity is rooted in its performance. Sure some steels earn their stripes but much of what is popular right now has more to do with what is the latest and greatest. The proof of that is you have steels that perform incredibly well yet since they have been around so long that people automaticslly equate that age with inferiority. Cpm154 s30v. As well as d2 just a few short years ago were viewed as premium steels. Hell s30v was pushed as a super steel when first released. Now people see them on the specs of a knife and they turn their nose at it. And while i would be perfectly happy with a sandvik blade the steels age, lack of prestige and bragging rights i fear will always make it an underdog. Even if it performed better than a newer alloy i think it would still be the runner up on that alone..
 
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Kershaw's 14c28n knives have been great for me. Really easy to sharpen and get really sharp. Hold an edge for an acceptable amount of time as well. I wish all of their knives used Sandvik 14c28n.
 
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:confused: I don't understand, 12C27 is basically just Europe's version of 420HC which has been used in mass-produced knives from the most prolific manufacturers for decades, as pinnah pointed out above. It is EXTREMELY popular, the single most-used stainless steel used in knives into the modern day, though it is slowly being replaced with Chinese imports of 7Cr & 8Cr. You've heard of Buck and Gerber, yes? They are in every sporting-goods store in America that I've been in and most of their knives are 420HC. Leatherman uses mostly 420HC. Victorinox/Wenger uses "INOX", another version of the same in their Swiss Army Knives. As already mentioned, it's used in Moras and Opinels...

There are more outdoor knives made of this stuff than any of the "new" steels on the market. The idea that it isn't "popular" is wildly inaccurate.

Why doesn't it get more praise? Real-world experience: newer steels take just as fine of an edge (using modern hones) and hold it much better in various types of cutting. Here are two independent rope-cutters:
http://www.fotogaleria.sandor.sk/ine/ostrie/Vysledky_testov.pdf
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Do you see where 12C27 and 420HC fall in those tests?

I enjoy my 420HC and 12C27 knives, especially their affordability (carrying a 12C27M buck right now). With regard to "traditionals" and also customs, there is much more emphasis placed on the style and execution of the design - handle materials, bolsters, thinness and polish of the grind, grind-lines, snap of springs, etc. :thumbup: A person buying a custom or a traditional is after more than steel-type.
 
stonproject said:
ebidis nailed this one. I absolutely love 12c27. People just seem to get off on "the new best thing". Most people couldnt tell the difference between 420j, 1095, and s35vn if the blade wasnt marked.
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Most people also don't belong to a knife forum or even carry a knife daily for that matter.

PURPLEDC said:
I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with that sandvik variety. I think what we are seeing is very much a flavor of the week syndrome in knives especially in regards to blade steels. From what i have seen very little of a particular steels popularity is rooted in its performance. Sure some steels earn their stripes but much of what is popular right now has more to do with what is the latest and greatest. The proof of that is you have steels that perform incredibly well yet since they have been around so long that people automaticslly equate that age with inferiority. Cpm154 s30v. As well as d2 just a few short years ago were viewed as premium steels. Hell s30v was pushed as a super steel when first released. Now people see them on the specs of a knife and they turn their nose at it. And while i would be perfectly happy with a sandvik blade the steels age, lack of prestige and bragging rights i fear will always make it an underdog. Even if it performed better than a newer alloy i think it would still be the runner up on that alone..
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Yes there is a bit of steel of the week going on. That said Esee and becker, two big brands, use good old 1095. Bark river still uses A2 the most. Gerber and buck only have a couple things not in lower grade steels. SOG is mostly Aus8 with some vg-10. Most of kershaw's line is 8cr with a lot of their American blades being sandvick or S30v. I think by far most knives sold (not including kitchen) are not what we would consider super steel.

Heck, look at what ZT is doing with its 2015 line up. Moving to S35vn. Hardly the flavor of the week.

I would like more use of the sandvick steels but I think we are blaming the lack there of too much on super steels.
 
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