14C28N steel

I keep a full-tang (Ruike Hornet) in my backpack. It is indestructible, one of the tougher steels used in knives - so nothing bad can happen to my fancy folders. It is also easy to sharpen in the field with small pocket stones. I consider it better than the steels you mentioned and is declared as the best budget steel by Larrin (check out knifesteelnerds.com ).
 
kobold said:
I thought it was aeb-l?
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Tsujigiri said:
Was 14c28n really developed for razor blades? I thought that was 12c27, and 14c28n is Kershaw's proprietary steel made for them by Sandvik. It's supposed to be an improvement without a significant cost increase, and is one of the few steels out there developed specifically for knives.
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It was 13C26, which is equivalent to AEB-L. It was a decent steel but the low corrosion resistance gave some people trouble. In hindsight, Kershaw's propensity for bead-blasted finishes probably had a lot to do with it. If so, call it a happy accident.

It led to Kershaw commissioning a new steel from Sandvik. Sandvik developed 14C28N in hopes of improving the corrosion resistance of 13C26. The new steel was not only much more resistant to corrosion, it gained a little on edge retention too. While it trades away a little toughness versus 13C26 or AEB-L, 14C28N is still one of the toughest stainless steels.

Now for some irony. Kershaw had exclusive use of 14C28N for years. Now that exclusivity has ended, we mostly see it being imported by China for use in budget knives. With Kershaw's more recent lack of innovation and refusal to upgrade, those Chinese companies are using 14C28N at prices comparable to Kershaw's Chinese-made knives in 8Cr13Mov.
 
I have a Ruike folder in 14C28N. It's noticeably better in edge retention compared to 8Cr13MoV and strops back very easily from a barely slicing paper edge to a clean slicing, shaving sharp edge. I'm happy with it. I've had this folder for about 6 months, EDCing it pretty much every day and using it for every random EDC cutting task that I've had to do and the only time it touched a sharpening stone was the day I got it, because I wasn't satisfied with the factory edge. I've only been stropping it since then. I wish the bigger manufacturers would pull their pants up and start offering their budget knives in this better steel instead of 8Cr13MoV or 420HC.
 
I'd be hard pressed to tell much difference between any of the Sandvik cutlery steels. My Manly Wasp in 12C27 (HRC 60/61) holds a fantastic edge. Sandvik says on its website, “12C27 is Sandvik's most well-rounded knife steel with excellent edge performance allowing razor sharpness, high hardness, exceptional toughness and good corrosion resistance. Continuous improvement over a period of 45 years has evolved it into the high performing steel grade it is today. The composition is tighter, the purity level is much higher and the fine carbide microstructure of today is far from how Sandvik 12C27 knife steel of the sixties looked. With a hardness range of 54-61 HRC, high toughness, scary sharpness and good corrosion resistance, Sandvik 12C27 is the recommended grade for hunting knives, pocket knives, camping knives, high-end chef's knives and tactical knives.” 13C26 may have a little higher corrosion resistance, but I doubt it would make a while lot of difference in actual use. Blade geometry and heat treatment can make a big difference. Mora uses 12C27 extensively,
 
kobold said:
I keep a full-tang (Ruike Hornet) in my backpack. It is indestructible, one of the tougher steels used in knives - so nothing bad can happen to my fancy folders. It is also easy to sharpen in the field with small pocket stones. I consider it better than the steels you mentioned and is declared as the best budget steel by Larrin (check out knifesteelnerds.com ).
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The Hornet is a phenomenal knife, especially for an edc fixed. The Ruike Jaeger is one of my favorites as well. It looks, feels, and performs like a much more expensive knife. I’ve both for myself, but constantly find myself buying them as gifts for others in need of a great knife (especially the Hornet).
 
From what I remember reading on Knife Steel Nerds, 12c27 was the first of these steels used for razor blades.

In comparison (also from KSN if I'm remembering correctly), 13c26 is slightly better than 14c28n for edge retention because it has a higher potential hardness and both of these are better than 12c27. Both 12c27 and 14c28n are better for corrosion resistance. They all score highly for toughness due to the fine microstructure. This is all assuming the heat treatment is done optimally.

All great budget steels.
 
Alberta Ed said:
I'd be hard pressed to tell much difference between any of the Sandvik cutlery steels. My Manly Wasp in 12C27 (HRC 60/61) holds a fantastic edge. Sandvik says on its website, “12C27 is Sandvik's most well-rounded knife steel with excellent edge performance allowing razor sharpness, high hardness, exceptional toughness and good corrosion resistance. Continuous improvement over a period of 45 years has evolved it into the high performing steel grade it is today. The composition is tighter, the purity level is much higher and the fine carbide microstructure of today is far from how Sandvik 12C27 knife steel of the sixties looked. With a hardness range of 54-61 HRC, high toughness, scary sharpness and good corrosion resistance, Sandvik 12C27 is the recommended grade for hunting knives, pocket knives, camping knives, high-end chef's knives and tactical knives.” 13C26 may have a little higher corrosion resistance, but I doubt it would make a while lot of difference in actual use. Blade geometry and heat treatment can make a big difference. Mora uses 12C27 extensively,
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I've also used 12C27 and my experiences have been positive. In theory, edge retention is 12C27 < 13C26/AEB-L < 14C28N. Of course, a lot depends on heat treatment and geometry in reality. Sadly, 12C27 doesn't appear in Larrin's charts. I haven't done any real testing but I'd bet that 12C27 has better corrosion resistance than 13C26. It might be tougher too. Maybe Larrin Larrin will stop by and share his thoughts.
 
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You guys should check out Outpost76 on YouTube. He's done extensive testing on steels with cardboard cutting. He ranked the 12C27 and 14C28N very well for a budget steel. He's got a spreadsheet with all the results of his tests. The results of his tests might surprise some of you and might even irritate those of you who have paid a lot of money for a seemingly better steel than the Sandvik steels.
 
emjay said:
You guys should check out Outpost76 on YouTube. He's done extensive testing on steels with cardboard cutting. He ranked the 12C27 and 14C28N very well for a budget steel. He's got a spreadsheet with all the results of his tests. The results of his tests might surprise some of you and might even irritate those of you who have paid a lot of money for a seemingly better steel than the Sandvik steels.
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I don't think there are too many on here that think the Sandvik steels are rubbish. Having said that, if you want to spend a bit more money on the powder steels you will get substantially better performance. that probably goes without saying though. They are pretty well respected around here.
 
chalby said:
I don't think there are too many on here that think the Sandvik steels are rubbish. Having said that, if you want to spend a bit more money on the powder steels you will get substantially better performance. that probably goes without saying though. They are pretty well respected around here.
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Even against some powder steels, the Sandvik steels compete and even beat a few powder steels in edge retention tests with cardboard cutting. Outpost 76 has linked his spreadsheet in the description of his videos if you want to take a look. It's very informative.
 
In my experience, 14C28N is overall one of the better choices. It resists rust well, it's pretty tough, it's easy to abrade when sharpening, and it takes a really thin, sharp edge. The last point is more important to me than how long it will stay sharp.
 
emjay said:
Even against some powder steels, the Sandvik steels compete and even beat a few powder steels in edge retention tests with cardboard cutting. Outpost 76 has linked his spreadsheet in the description of his videos if you want to take a look. It's very informative.
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Outpost 76 is my favorite cut tester. While he is testing under very specific conditions, he is doing so in a reasonably controlled matter. At least anecdotally, I've found his results to be largely in line with my own experiences.

One thing he has helped to demonstrate is both the effect of heat treatment on different steels and the trends of average heat treatments within the industry. Compare his results to the CATRA testing at ideal heat treatments from Larrin. Notice how so much of the budget D2 coming out of China not only falls well short of the ideal, but below the average performance of less expensive knives in 12C27, 14C28N, or other decent budget steels. I've speculated that the universally decent performance of Sandvik Steels may have something to do with either an ease of heat treatment or lack of sensitivity to issues in heat treatment.

BTW, we've also seen mass-production knives in "super steels" fall short of expectation. A big surprise was seeing 9Cr18Mov with an excellent heat treatment from WE, in $40-60 knives from Civivi and Sencut, nipping at the heels of S30V, S35VN, and M390 on edge retention.
 
emjay said:
Even against some powder steels, the Sandvik steels compete and even beat a few powder steels in edge retention tests with cardboard cutting. Outpost 76 has linked his spreadsheet in the description of his videos if you want to take a look. It's very informative.
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I'm familiar with his testing and it's quite interesting, but remember he is one guy doing particular tests with many variables. There are quite a few people doing similar tests with sometimes very different results. We both agree though(as do most members on this forum) that these steels are great for what they are.
 
emjay said:
Even against some powder steels, the Sandvik steels compete and even beat a few powder steels in edge retention tests with cardboard cutting. Outpost 76 has linked his spreadsheet in the description of his videos if you want to take a look. It's very informative.
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Which powdered steels?
 
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far, away, (1986 Knifemaker's Guild Show) I had a very interesting and rather lengthy conversation with Blackie Collins, wherein we discussed the various steels in use at the time. He opined that Sandvik steels were among the best available steels due to their cleanliness (lack of inclusions), relatively easy grinding, corrosion resistance, and very good response to heat-treatment. He considered edge-holding to be acceptable, tho not amazing. But, considering the ease of sharpening, this was not a major concern. The only downside, at the time, was the propensity for 12C27 to 'orange peel' during buffing. Bead blasting, or a satin finish, were the obvious solutions, but he had found a method for mirror polishing 12C27 that minimized the issue, and left a very attractive blade.

I'm a fan of 14C28N, and I think, had he not perished in a motorcycle accident, that Mr Collins would also be a fan. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, I also think he'd be more impressed with SOME of the CPM alloys...
 
Dr Rez said:
Which powdered steels?
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S30V, S35VN, M390 and 20CV from a variety of brands from what I saw on the spreadsheet. Even properly heat treated 9Cr18MoV did very well and beat these same powder steels from some brands with his testing.
 
emjay said:
S30V, S35VN, M390 and 20CV from a variety of brands from what I saw on the spreadsheet. Even properly heat treated 9Cr18MoV did very well and beat these same powder steels from some brands with his testing.
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I don't think that is true if all properties are equal (the grind, edge, overall geometry, heat treat). s30v/s35vn, m390 (which is 20cv) all have massive amounts of chromium and vanadium carbide which hugely affect edge retention. Sandvik steels (12c27, 13c26, 14c28n) have next to none in comparison. It is mainly cementite (carbon and iron) and a very small degree of chromium carbide. It would be virtually impossible to have even close to the edge retention of even s35vn with all the factors being equal I mentioned before.

A good source for this is: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ The author Larrin Thomas uses this forum from time to time so if he sees this im sure he can correct/add on to what I am saying.
 
I've done enough edge retention testing not to trust most people's results. They don't control enough variables when they set up their tests.
I do trust Larrin's results. He not only controlled the hardness of the alloy, but also the geometry of test blade. Both things that most tester's ignore. Geometry is way more important than alloy when it comes to edge retention results.
 
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