154CM vs. D2 (mostly in Benchmades ...mostly)

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thombrogan

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If you read in the knifemags, there's an opinion among some custom makers that D2 will hold its edge almost as well as ATS-34. In my li'l collection of Benchmades, I've noticed that D2 holds its edge longer than 154CM (which I think is close enough to ATS-34 for comparison's sake), but 154CM seems capable of taking a sharper edge (both pop hair, but the 154CM is a little sharper).

Has anyone else experienced a similar phenomenon?
 
I get the opposite results when I sharpen my two Camillus EDC's. They are exactly the same design knife except one has a 154CM blade and one is D2. I was unhappy with the edge on my 154CM version so I bought an oval cross section diamond "steel" for reprofiling. Using that and my Sharpmaker I got a passable edge, but nothing I was proud of. Then I got the version made for A.G. Russell with the D2 blade. I used the same tools to reprofile and sharpen the blade. It came out significantly sharper. It is an edge that I like.

I have heard it said (and in the past I have repeated the "wisdom") that D2 takes a rough edge and holds it forever. This has not been my experience with the last 3 D2 blades I have bought. With recent D2 and thin blade profiles I find that I get razor edges with D2. I haven't done systematic slicing experiments to validate the effective roughness that it is supposed to have.

The steel that gives me substandard edges is 154CM/ATS-34.

Back over a year ago Cliff did a test with the A.G. Russell Deer Hunter in D2 and VG10. I think he has also looked at the model in ATS-34. You could check his website.
 
I'm guessing that Camillus isn't scared to run their 154CM harder than Benchmade's.

After lots of work, I can now get durable, hair-popping sharp edges with D2 that outlast my 154CM edges, but I can get Benchmade's 154CM sharper than their D2.
 
Jeff,
I'd like to take a look at Cliff's website. Do you know the address?

Thanks,

Bruce
 
Jeff Clark :

I have heard it said (and in the past I have repeated the "wisdom") that D2 takes a rough edge and holds it forever.
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I think this probably came from forgers used to working with very simple steels like 52100 and sharpening on norton india stones or similar. From such a perspective I can readily see such a conclusion being formed, fine polishing D2 takes a *long* time. I have a fully convex D2 blade, I would not want to try to raise it to a hair splitting edge and simply leave it quite rough (it works better that way anyhow for how I use it).

With modern abrasives D2 works readily, and its limiting sharpness, while not as high as 52100, is high enough that very few people will ever reach it due to skill limitations. It is for example much higher than the sharpness of the vast majority of production and even custom blades I have seen. In fact out of all the knives I have handled, only a few have been that sharp NIB that you could see a difference in steel having an effect.

Noting that D2 should hold its edge almost as long as ATS-34 is a weird opinion however, unless you are in a corrosive enviroment, or the heat treat on D2 is really sub-optimal. D2 can get to 62 HRC and has a very high wear resistance, and some very high alloy carbides. It should outperform such steels across the board in regards to edge retention aside from corrosion. Mel Sorg's D2 certainly didn't fare sub-standard vs ATS-34.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Mel Sorg's D2 certainly didn't fare sub-standard vs ATS-34.

-Cliff
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Long time since I heard The Mad Poets name in my head, Cliff.

Does anyone know the source of Benchmades D2? Are they using D2 Crucible Airdi-150? I was surprized by how much the alloys in D2 can vary by source as mention in the recent Blade article as well.

Some D-2, depending on brand, contains vanadium...Most D-2, (Wayne) Goddard notes, has between 10 and 12-1/2 percent chromium.

-Blade Magazine, March 2004, Pg. 76
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Hey, thanks Jeff for the link to Cliff Stamp's website. I have seen several of his posts here of BladeForums. Always "interesting". :D He can be a wee bit on knives though, cant't he. :eek:

I'll check out the site this weekend.

Thanks again,
Bruce
 
stjames, i once asked BM about their D2. They got more than one supplier, one maybe is Pacific Steel (or sounds like that) and CM.

Using a BM 154CM i go with Thoms experience, taht it takes a little sharper a finer edge than their D2.

Many say, that D2 contains some larger carbides which tend to break out. Find this proven by own usage. No matter the edgeangle.

Got my own test for edge holding: Slic up a Pampersbox. The card bord is covered with something stiff, so steels or edges with weak structures get littel chips after cutting one or two meters of the box.

the #520 154CM, the #5000A S30V and a custom D2, hardened and tempered on high temperatures hold their edges. The #806 D2 gets one or two little chips, which you will not see but feel. Those chips last forever, like one said before, it takes a toothy edge and holds it.

I never tried a S90V blade and i guess i will not, but never found a steel, which was really hard to sharpen(?). No, one ATS34 of a #812s, but this one is out for warranty.
 
I have used D2 From several different sources and the lowest Cr I have seen was 11.5% and the highest 12%, C from 1.4% to 1.55%, V from 0.8% to 1.0%, Mo from 0.75% to 1.0%.

Practically, I haven't seen much difference in the end results. Varying the heat treatment will cause noticable differences, however.

D2 specs published by Crucible show it to peak in toughness (impact resistance) at HRC 60. I often wonder why some companies harden to lower values (57-58) when they actually lose toughness. Using D2 at a less than optimum performance treatment will only damage its reputation and disappoint you. If you want ease of sharpening, you should go with a different steel.

Edited to add: I have used D2 from Uddeholm, Precision Marshall, Timken-Latrobe and Crucible.
 
I am not generally hard enough on my blades to really test edge-retention, but based on my limited experience I have to say that D2 hold an edge longer than ATS-34/154CM, as well as being somewhat tougher.

--Bob Q
 
Originally posted by Blop
the #520 154CM, the #5000A S30V and a custom D2, hardened and tempered on high temperatures hold their edges. The #806 D2 gets one or two little chips, which you will not see but feel. Those chips last forever, like one said before, it takes a toothy edge and holds it.
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Blop, the 5000A S30V - was this a limited run Benchmade? I'd only seen the 5000 in 154CM.
 
I have used both 154 and D2 in my knifemaking - in fact I have used both steels in my "bush baby" series at the same hardness 59-60hrc and have been able to make the following observations:

154 takes a finer edge and is an excellent cutter of leather on the work table.

D2 whilst not taking as finer an edge will outlast the 154 in all edge retention tests esp. on manilla rope.

The 154 blade is easier to sharpen but only marginally although I notice the 154 will respond to stropping on a leather hone better then D2.

My own conclusion after using these knives for 6 months was that in edge retention D2 is the leader. Whilst not actually recording it on paper I know that I return the 154 to the stone more often then the D2 and that the D2 responds to steeling on a polished steel better then the 154. If you were to look at it over a period of time the D2 knife is going to last longer then the 154 but for the average knife user that may not mean much but for anyone using knives on a day to day basis the D2 is the way to go.

A further observation - I have used ATS34 also and to date I have not found this steel to be as good as the 154 I have used.

Despite the above observations mainly for the reason of availablity and economics my next round of knives (the "wombat" with a 2.5" blade) will be made of A2 and ATS34 so it will be interesting to see the results.
 
JD if you haven't used A2 before you are in for a treat. It is easier to grind that D2 and hardens 55°C lower. It takes a very fine edge and holds it well, although I think the D2 edge will outlast it. Its optimum hardenss for maximum toughness is HRC 61.

I have never been a fan of the 14-4 stainless steels. I have found D2 to be just as stainless. at least here in the arid climate where I live.
 
Originally posted by shgeo
JD if you haven't used A2 before you are in for a treat. It is easier to grind that D2 and hardens 55°C lower. It takes a very fine edge and holds it well, although I think the D2 edge will outlast it. Its optimum hardenss for maximum toughness is HRC 61.

I have never been a fan of the 14-4 stainless steels. I have found D2 to be just as stainless. at least here in the arid climate where I live.
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Steve thanks for that mate it backs up everything I have read on this forum and elsewhere re A2. We have lost our good and reliable source of D2 here and as I have to now import my steel from the US I looked for a more economic steel with little loss in performance compared to D2. In fact just received my first order of A2 and am itching to get to the grinder.

I agree re D2 and stainless and given our dry climate have never had a problem with D2 but there are still those who seek "stainless" so that's why I am using ATS34 as an alternative (gotta keep the customers happy) but I will finish the A2 batch first.
 
JD doesn't Uddeholm do business in Oz? I do quite a bit of business with their North American incarnation-Bodler/Uddeholm NA <www.bucorp.com> through their internet tool steel sales site, <www.flatground.com>

I really wish they would supply their powder metal tool steel Vanadis 4 in flat bar form.
 
Originally posted by Nick Hyle
Blop, the 5000A S30V - was this a limited run Benchmade? I'd only seen the 5000 in 154CM.
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Go to Germany. It's a limited edition treat for Unsere Freunde.
 
Steve Yes we have a Bohler distributor but as there is a lack of demand for flatground barstock in Oz they have stopped importing. Unfortunately D2 does not seem to popular amongst knifemakers here - most of them are into stainless and even that is hard to get in barstock unless you are prepared to pay a premium price. Even before the latest price rise in the dollar it is cheaper to import from the US.
 
I'm curious to know how M-2 and VG10 stack up to each other. I have dilemma of sorts right now. I have been swapping between a Spyderco Mouse and my Benchmade 705 in M2 as my EDC. Thombrogan, I know that you have knives made with both M-2 and VG10. What has been your experience? Anyone else who has an opinion please feel free to provide your opinion and the reason why you feel that way.
 
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