1980 Dixie Collection Thread (144UH and staglon LB-7)

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

I just purchased these on eBay. I have wanted a "Guides Choice" since I first saw them in Field and Stream thirty years ago but alas, my paper-route didn't afford such luxuries back then. I've wanted a four-pin LB-8 (7) like this too and so I couldn't resist this sweet set:

Please forgive this somewhat bewildered Canadian when I ask where is "Burnside" and what's it's significance historically?

Thanks guys! D.

 

[Codger_64]

Great knife set Dave! This is a set that I had not seen in six years of off and on looking for Dixie Sets. And it is one that gave me fits in trying to identify. I think I finally found it, however.

While most of these sets honored States in the South and had either State names or State birds and flowers on them, yours has a landmark, an antebellum mansion. But what threw me off is the "Burnside" name in the etch.

First coming to mind was Burnside Bridge, scene of an epic Civil War battle, the original "Bridge too Far", in which a general was ordered to cross under whithering enemy fire. But Burnside was a Northern General, and there is no stone bridge shown.

Next I searched for "Burnside Mansion" and "Burnside Plantation". That search turned up a lot of hits from the Falkland Island to Pennsylvania to North Carolina, but no structure matched.

I finally found it though. Rich in history though it is, it is not well known outside of the area where it is located, Burnside , Louisianna. The building in the etch is Houmas House Plantation, named for the original Indian tribe that inhabited the land. Maurice Conway and Alexander Latil began a sugar plantation there in the mid 1700's and built an French Provincial house on the property just behind this mansion. In 1810, Revolutionary War hero Gen. Wade Hampton of Virginia purchased the property and began construction on themansion (His grandson, Wade Hampton III was a Confederate Calvary General during the coming war), but the mansion wasn't completed until 1828 by Hampton's daughter and her husband. In the years preceeding the war the plantation was enlarged to 300,000 acres. Irishman John Burnside bought the plantation in 1857 for $1 million. He continued to own the mansion and plantation through the war, saving it from destruction because he was a British National. At it's peak, the plantation produced 20 million pounds of sugar a year.

The house was restored in the 1940's and was used in the movie "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" in 1963 starring Bette Davis, Olivia DeHaviland, Joseph Cotton, Agnes Moorhead, Bruce Dern, George Kennedy, etc.. It has appeared in a dozen or more movies since then.

[youtube]Ac8Lc_vF6G0[/youtube]

I'll add this knife to the growing list of Dixie Edition issues! :thumbup:

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Great knife set Dave! This is a set that I had not seen in six years of off and on looking for Dixie Sets. And it is one that gave me fits in trying to identify. I think I finally found it, however.

While most of these sets honored States in the South and had either State names or State birds and flowers on them, yours has a landmark, an antebellum mansion. But what threw me off is the "Burnside" name in the etch.

First coming to mind was Burnside Bridge, scene of an epic Civil War battle, the original "Bridge too Far", in which a general was ordered to cross under whithering enemy fire. But Burnside was a Northern General, and there is no stone bridge shown.

Next I searched for "Burnside Mansion" and "Burnside Plantation". That search turned up a lot of hits from the Falkland Island to Pennsylvania to North Carolina, but no structure matched.

I finally found it though. Rich in history though it is, it is not well known outside of the area where it is located, Burnside , Louisianna. The building in the etch is Houmas House Plantation, named for the original Indian tribe that inhabited the land. Maurice Conway and Alexander Latil began a sugar plantation there in the mid 1700's and built an French Provincial house on the property just behind this mansion. In 1810, Revolutionary War hero Gen. Wade Hampton of Virginia purchased the property and began construction on themansion (His grandson, Wade Hampton III was a Confederate Calvary General during the coming war), but the mansion wasn't completed until 1828 by Hampton's daughter and her husband. In the years preceeding the war the plantation was enlarged to 300,000 acres. Irishman John Burnside bought the plantation in 1857 for $1 million. He continued to own the mansion and plantation through the war, saving it from destruction because he was a British National. At it's peak, the plantation produced 20 million pounds of sugar a year.

The house was restored in the 1940's and was used in the movie "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" in 1963 starring Bette Davis, Olivia DeHaviland, Joseph Cotton, Agnes Moorhead, Bruce Dern, George Kennedy, etc.. It has appeared in a dozen or more movies since then.

I'll add this knife to the growing list of Dixie Edition issues! :thumbup:

Thanks a lot Codger!!! You really came through. I have read pretty well all of your posts and having you here is a real privilege. I "googled" Burnside too and was confused by the many different ones as well.

I found these two other ones on worthpoint that I had not seen before and include these links for your records:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/schrade-uncle-henry-1980-ltd-edition-set-2-knives (Capital)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/schrade1980uncle-henry-limited-75444921 (Three Generals? Presidents?)

 

[Codger_64]

Woof!

That makes three heretofore unknown sets in one day! That makes nine known and documented issues so far.

First the Burnside Louisiana Edition, then the Lee/Davis/Jackson edition and the original Confederate Capitol in Montgomery Alabama (not the most recognized one in Richmond Virginia).

Lee was the son of Lighthorse Harry Lee and the eventual General In Chief of all Confederate forces, General Thomas Jackson his Lieutenant General and brilliant tactician, and Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. These last two are shown in boxes dated 1980. What year does your box show on the cover (not all boxes do)?

 

[GRIM 62]

Very cool set of old Schrades!I sure miss them being made here.

 

[delmas2nd]

just a side note? was wondering what was a real "Yankee" in Mr. Baer doing making commemorative knives for the Southern States and it leaders and significant places? makes you wonder what other places they honored?

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Woof!

That makes three heretofore unknown sets in one day! That makes nine known and documented issues so far.

First the Burnside Louisiana Edition, then the Lee/Davis/Jackson edition and the original Confederate Capitol in Montgomery Alabama (not the most recognized one in Richmond Virginia).

Lee was the son of Lighthorse Harry Lee and the eventual General In Chief of all Confederate forces, General Thomas Jackson his Lieutenant General and brilliant tactician, and Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. These last two are shown in boxes dated 1980. What year does your box show on the cover (not all boxes do)?

Sadly, mine has the see-through plastic cover (lid), the sleeve for the 144 blade and correct box bottom but no brown "Uncle Henry" box-top. I found one on worthpoint though and top says 1980:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/schrade-usa-lb7-144-dixie-burnside-1980-knife

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

just a side note? was wondering what was a real "Yankee" in Mr. Baer doing making commemorative knives for the Southern States and it leaders and significant places? makes you wonder what other places they honored?

I think the simple answer is likely right:

He did it because Southern money is green too . "Give the people what they want"

 

[Codger_64]

I think the simple answer is likely right:

He did it because Southern money is green too . "Give the people what they want"

When we questioned M. Chase, former Schrade Historian about these sets in 2004, she was at that time aware of only two sets.

Schrade didn't have a whole lot of info on these knives. I do know that there were approximately 10,000 of the first set manufactured, and they were manufactured in 1978. (Can't find any records from Schrade to back the claim that there were 4 different sets). This set marked the introduction of both, the 144 and the LB7 w/ staglon handles, as well as Schrade's 75th year in business. The following year, the 144UH was added to the regular line of Uncle Henry knives, and in 1982, the LB8, which is the LB7 with Staglon handles, was added to the Uncle Henry line.

The sets were noted by Bernard Levine: According to Levine's book, there were four sets of two knives each.

The sets were noted by J. Bruce Voyles, and he mentions one set of two knives.

In fact, nowhere else other than my archives do I find even the least mention that there were as many as nine sets. Ms. Chase did note that she found three customers listed for the Dixie sets: Parker Frost, Orgill Brothers and Smokey Mountain Knife Works. It is not a stretch to imagine that each customer had their knives etched differently.

Given that there were thirteen States which could be identified as comprising "Dixie", and only five actual States identified so far in the series, there could be another eight lurking out there as yet undiscovered. Possibly more given the non-state-specific issues that have come to light, four in all.

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Quote:
"Schrade didn't have a whole lot of info on these knives. I do know that there were approximately 10,000 of the first set manufactured"

Codger, I'm wondering if this stat really means they made 10,000 Dixie Sets Total(!) released from 1978 to 1980 with different etchings because all the Dixie sets I've seen have had three digit serials.

My hypothesis is that there were 1000 of each etch offering. Does this fit in with your findings? Have you seen any of these sets with four digit serials?

 

[Codger_64]

Dunno. I believe Ms. Chase meant 10,000 sets in that first year, 1978. If the issue was limited to 500 each, that is 20 different sets. I am yet to see one serialed over 500. Have you? I think that at this point we just have to take that 10,000 figure with a grain of salt. Until I can ask her how she arrived at that 10,000 figure, we can only guess. Was it actual units shipped, components ordered, or a design and production forecast?

So far, I am able to confirm only four editions as positively 1978, all four were "State" editions. Another two state editions are possible, plus whatever other editions we have not yet seen. Likewise, only four editions are proven to be from 1980 including the three you presented today. That makes ten editions known.

Larry (lrv), is your box set "FLORIDA" dated? I don't have a date for that issue or Kentucky yet.

ETA: States seceeding:
South Carolina
Mississippi
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Louisiana
Texas
Virginia
Arkansas
Tennessee
North Carolina

Several border states were contested:
Maryland
Kentucky
Missouri

 

[thawk]

I had a South Carolina set at one time, and sold it to a dude named Gino in Italy. I think I've reported that state.

 

[Codger_64]

I had a South Carolina set at one time, and sold it to a dude named Gino in Italy. I think I've reported that state.

Yes, dated 1978.

 

[Larry303]

...and the North Carolina 1978 in my LB8 thread..
Codger set to now and write your Schrade book..you have more knowledge and certainly access to Schrade photo examples and exclusive rights to any of my photos...than anyone else can or will have...but you'll have to be quick Bruce V has one coming out in 2007....Hoo Roo
P.S. Fantastic research on the Dixie's Dave and Michael.....

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

I've never seen one serialized over 500. If memory serves "Texas" was a Christmas '78 offering too and correct me if I am wrong but I believe these "Old Faithful Companions II" sets from 1979 had the exact same font and flower as the Schrade Dixie sets from '78. Maybe the State Flower issues were all 1978-79 and the others (non-states) all 1980? Just a guess because of the close etch etc.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683388

 

[Codger_64]

...and the North Carolina 1978 in my LB8 thread....

AAACCCKKK!! Ok, added that one and revised my archives. That makes five "State" sets in 1978 fer shure, eleven issues altogether so far. We are nine short of the twenty to make 10,000 sets if that was a box or parts quantity order number.

For our purposes, I won't include those Imperial sets in the Schrade Dixie Editions since they were comprised of the two newly introduced knives, 144UH and LB-8.

...P.S. Fantastic research on the Dixie's Dave and Michael.....

I need a naval historian to identify the actual ship on that steamboat issue now. Perhaps it will give us a clue on the knife's identity. I have a sneaking suspician that Orgill Brothers is behind that one. That Southern regional hardware distributor began in a little backwater town (Memphis) in 1847, about the same time Henry Bodenheim began downstream in the booming town of Vickburg.

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Codger: Larry's 1980 Gold Rush set ( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768703 ) has a three pin LB-8 versus 4 pins in the Dixie's even though they were both offerred in 1980. Strong evidence perhaps that the 10000 units produced in 1978 were the only ones manufactured although there is the brass shield versus n/s discrepancy to keep us confused.

What do you think guys?

 

[Codger_64]

The exact dates have slipped my mind, but all of the LB-7 pattern (including LB-8 and scrims) originally had four pins. The design was changed briefly so that all of that pattern should have only three pins. A problem developed with warping of the smooth Delrin covers, and they reverted to four pins on that version, while the others remained assembled with three. I believe that Dale (orvet) once showed us that all of these later frames did have pin holes punched for both 3 and 4 pin versions (for commonality of components in manufacturing assembly) after that last ECO came down (Engineering Change Order). Perhaps someone can find that post by Dale with a forum search or he can reconfirm my weak memory.

Since this subject of the Dixie Collection resurfaced with your post, Dave, I have been doing a lot more research on the sets and revising my archives on the subject. At this point, I feel comfortable in stating that there were indeed only four issues in the Dixie Collection sets, all made (or at least dated on the gift boxes) in 1980. The other issues with state names and flowers which are (so far) dated 1978 are not from this named series, but are a separate series unto themselves. At this point, I lack an official name for the series. As is my habit, I hereby assign them the working name of "Dixie Edition", as opposed to the later "Dixie Collection".

If all of you would send me your sets complete with boxes and papers, it would make this research much easier for me. I promise to treat them nicely and occasionally speak fondly to them (they like to be called "my precious", by the way).

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

Quote: "(they like to be called "my precious", by the way)

very funny

 

[Dave Thinkstoomuch]

At this point, I feel comfortable in stating that there were indeed only four issues in the Dixie Collection sets, all made (or at least dated on the gift boxes) in 1980. The other issues with state names and flowers which are (so far) dated 1978 are not from this named series, but are a separate series unto themselves. At this point, I lack an official name for the series. As is my habit, I hereby assign them the working name of "Dixie Edition", as opposed to the later "Dixie Collection".

There was a Tennessee Set just auctioned off on eBay that seems to give us an official name for what we have been calling the "Dixie Edition" sets from 1978.

In another thread about "The Old Faithful Companions II" sets ( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683388 ) I posed the question "What was The Old Faithful Companions" (one) set?" and Hal and Eric guessed right.

Turns out these sets are as shown on 2nd pic.

I think from here forward we can now confidently refer to these 1978 sets as "The Old Faithful Companions" (one) and the 1980 sets as "The Dixie Collection".

Did anyone here buy this set I'm referring to? I'd love to know what the paperwork says because pic isn't high enough resolution to read the finer print.

Mystery solved, Codger! I hope this helps.