.308 Win or 30-06 Springfield

messer454 · Feb 23, 2011

Lots of good knowledge here but I havn't read what you intend to hunt. IMO it depends totally on what you intend to hunt. Want one rifle of the two you listed for deer to elk...go with a .30-06 because of heavier bullets. Just hunting deer....its a toss up for me. A .30-06 is as close to a one caliber do all rifle as you can get without handloading and/or excessive recoil.

Had the same thoughts myself and always figured if I could afford to go to Alaska I could afford to buy a bigger rifle.

Ironic · Feb 23, 2011

adrock1978 said:
So you're saying I can duplicate or come close to magnum rounds (ie .300 win mag) with higher loaded, heavier 30-06 rounds

That is true. I looked online just now for Federal Cartridges High Velocity (HV) 180-gr. Nosler Partition load in the .30-06, and apparently they no longer make that cartridgeprobably theyve replaced it, but I dont see in their table what it was replaced with.

But muzzle velocity for that .30-06 load from a 24 in. barrel was 2880 fps, @ 100 yds/2685 fps and 300 yds/2320 fps. Federals 300 Win Mag loading with the 180 gr. Nosler Partition has a muzzle velocity of 80 fps more at 2960, but at 100 yds it has dropped almost to the 30-06 at 2701 fps vs. 2685 for the 06 and at 300 yds the 06 surpassed it at 2320 fps vs. 2224 for the 300 Win Mag.

That means the 06 is actually hitting harder at 300 yards than the 300 Mag, because the bullet used in the .30-06 HV loading had a slightly better ballistic coefficient than that used in their 300 Win Mag load. (The 300 Mag load has a protected point, which shortens the bullet just a smidge and lowers velocity retention.) These are velocities/ballistics tables I have on my computer, but certainly you can go to Hornady.com and find Superformance loads for the 30-06 that are in the same ballpark as some of the traditional loadings for the .300 Win Mag.

This is just a matter of picking apart the ballistics tables and seeing whats whattakes a little time and study.

richstag · Feb 23, 2011

My vote will go for the 7mm STW. Why? Because even if you don't hit the thing the boom and thunder rumbling through the hills and valleys will scare whatever your hunting, and everything else, away

No, the real reason is because its what I have

Even better right

Remington's Ballistics for 7mm STW

If you haven't yet and you are interested in Remington's ballistics check this out.

http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx

richstag · Feb 23, 2011

richstag · Feb 23, 2011

RussMo said:
OK ,I live in Alaska!!! I have owned everything from .308 up to my present fav., .45-70 & .458 Win Mag. IMHO leave the .308 at home, it's best for Mule Deer and down. .30-06 is kinda considered minimul up here for general hunting. If you come to Alaska to hunt even remotely dangerous game to include Moose GET USE To MOA and do it with 200-220 grn bullets. Don't shoot your gun in with 150-180 grainers and say you will ajust up to a heavier buller up here. WRONG you are asking for missed shoots or poor at least.

Everything and I mean everything has to be taken to account, weather, humidity, elevation, temp. uphill vs downhill shots. TRUST ME ON THIS!!! If you plan a trip and with you being an out of stater it would be better with a guide. There are unguide hunts just not for Dangerous game. If you go out on the Islands around the state you have to assume the worst case scenario, BROWN BEAR. I was just talking to a friend the otherday that it took 5 rounds from a .375 H&H Mag in the boiler room of a Coastal Brown before it nosed over. This is why shot placement is critical mass. You are standing a chance at being charged in close quarters, adrenaline, fear, excitement, weather conditions, YOUR PHYSICAL CONDITION will take a major role in what goes down or NOT. Don't mean to be negitive or even straying from your original gun talk but believe me all of this needs to taken into acct Bro. If it was me the old Alskan standby is the .338 Win Mag. Ammo is available everywhere cause it is one of the most popular rounds up here. When I'm stompin thru thick undergrowth I go with my .45-70 or .458 They work period!!! If you are hunting more open areas .300 Win Mag (another popular round)-.338 Win Mag is better a choice.

Everyone knows the ABILITY of the .30-06, question is what is your ability. I am not running you down or being negitive towards you in any shape or manner. Just want you to come and enjoy yourself and go home in the same conditon as you showed up. Alive, safe and going home with a grin on your face for a hunt well done. Like I said .30-06 is butt ugly MINIMUM>>>

This is the kind of opinion that would matter to me. Someone who is there and is doing that. IMO :thumbup:

tao_m · Feb 23, 2011

get the rem 700 in 308 for medium to small game (less punishment and more accurate) chances are you will use it more than just one time a year.
and buy the 700 Remington in 338wm for Alaska game. if you go 2 times hunting, use it for those 2 times and then sell it when you are done!!

no different that with knives i carry my boss street every day but when i go out to the woods i take my mistress with me for the right job!!!

just my 2 cents!!!

lsheldon · Feb 23, 2011

Yeah, if I were to go to Alaska and hunt, I would want RussMo in my hunting party.

Bigfattyt · Feb 23, 2011

For a "do all rifle" in North America .30-06 is absolutely the way to go. A much more versatile cartridge. More punch, more flavors of ammo. It wins in just about every aspect (except for a bit more cartridge length, and therefore a slightly longer action).

Bit more recoil. But honestly, I was hunting with a .30-06 as a kid.

If it is an all purpose hunting round you are looking for I would pick the .30-06.

Even for a recoil sensitive person, in a normal rifle, with scope, even hot loads are not too much recoil, even with heavy bullets.

With lighter loads, even better. There is an amazing spread of ammo loads available. And you can find the ammo everywhere!

adrock1978 · Feb 23, 2011

RussMo said:
OK ,I live in Alaska!!! I have owned everything from .308 up to my present fav., .45-70 & .458 Win Mag. IMHO leave the .308 at home, it's best for Mule Deer and down. .30-06 is kinda considered minimul up here for general hunting. If you come to Alaska to hunt even remotely dangerous game to include Moose GET USE To MOA and do it with 200-220 grn bullets. Don't shoot your gun in with 150-180 grainers and say you will ajust up to a heavier buller up here. WRONG you are asking for missed shoots or poor at least.

Everything and I mean everything has to be taken to account, weather, humidity, elevation, temp. uphill vs downhill shots. TRUST ME ON THIS!!! If you plan a trip and with you being an out of stater it would be better with a guide. There are unguide hunts just not for Dangerous game. If you go out on the Islands around the state you have to assume the worst case scenario, BROWN BEAR. I was just talking to a friend the otherday that it took 5 rounds from a .375 H&H Mag in the boiler room of a Coastal Brown before it nosed over. This is why shot placement is critical mass. You are standing a chance at being charged in close quarters, adrenaline, fear, excitement, weather conditions, YOUR PHYSICAL CONDITION will take a major role in what goes down or NOT. Don't mean to be negitive or even straying from your original gun talk but believe me all of this needs to taken into acct Bro. If it was me the old Alskan standby is the .338 Win Mag. Ammo is available everywhere cause it is one of the most popular rounds up here. When I'm stompin thru thick undergrowth I go with my .45-70 or .458 They work period!!! If you are hunting more open areas .300 Win Mag (another popular round)-.338 Win Mag is better a choice.

Everyone knows the ABILITY of the .30-06, question is what is your ability. I am not running you down or being negitive towards you in any shape or manner. Just want you to come and enjoy yourself and go home in the same conditon as you showed up. Alive, safe and going home with a grin on your face for a hunt well done. Like I said .30-06 is butt ugly MINIMUM>>>

Like everyone's said, this is excellent info and I appreciate it. I definitely think I'm swayed towards the .30-06. It seems so much more versatile. What I don't understand though is why none of the "tactical" style free floated 700s are offered in 30-06 if its so similar to .308 with more options... that was what caused the question between the two, to begin with. I wanted 30-06 but it wasn't in a freefloat or bedded option. Only .308 and 300wm. That's why we're here now. And im pretty sure I don't want .300 win. for a primarily white tail rifle...

Knifehunter ftw.

RussMo · Feb 23, 2011

Exactly what MODEL are you after??? I'm thinking your comparing apples and oranges. What I mean is on the tactical side of the house the Military and cops use the .308 due to MAN STOPPING power and accuracy. When the ranges became future out they stepped up to .300 WM and now they use the .338 Lapua. These are man stoppers. If this is what your after in the long run then your options are what they are. If you want a HUNTING RIFLE that is different. I'm going over to Remingtons web site to look at it. One more thing is I use to build National Match rifles ie M-14 , M-21, M-40s for the National Guard Marksman and match shooters. Took Honor Grad at the Rifle/Pistol coarse back in Jan/Feb 1986.I do know a little about .308, .300WM, Lapua came around after I was gone.
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Been awhile since I looked at Remington anything. Man looks like they have moved to the Tac arena in a lot of styles and reduced there hunting rifles. You are limited if that's your choice of rifle. Now I think it was Rat Fink that said Savage is out there and I know there good as well. I know for a fact that the Mossberg 4X4s are selling real good up here and they have freefloaters (barrel), synthetic stocks etc etc. and in -06. Synthetic stocks are best if your going into a rainy enviroment and/or where you can encounter freeze/rain/snow mix. I promise you up here I've been out in the snow on July 4th at a little higher elevations. You are just going to have to decide whar will cover your widest range of uses, or you will need a minimum of two guns to span what you want. I say get two, one being a .308 Tac for whatever and medium game, and then upgrade to a .338WM for anything Elk and above.

tao_m · Feb 23, 2011

Good to see you Russ! Hey like I told you before, if i ever make it to Alaska I'm hanging out with you brother!!!!

RussMo · Feb 23, 2011

tao_m said:
Good to see you Russ! Hey like I told you before, if i ever make it to Alaska I'm hanging out with you brother!!!!

Just give a shout Bro, door is open!!!

J. Oeser · Feb 23, 2011

adrock1978 said:
Like everyone's said, this is excellent info and I appreciate it. I definitely think I'm swayed towards the .30-06. It seems so much more versatile. What I don't understand though is why none of the "tactical" style free floated 700s are offered in 30-06 if its so similar to .308 with more options... that was what caused the question between the two, to begin with. I wanted 30-06 but it wasn't in a freefloat or bedded option. Only .308 and 300wm. That's why we're here now. And im pretty sure I don't want .300 win. for a primarily white tail rifle...

Knifehunter ftw.

My plan is to have both of these to cover all the bases I will come across. Maybe you should consider the same because IMO, in the long run there really is no such thing as a do it all rifle. Like Russmo said 30-06 is a bare a$$ minimum for AK. I personally wouldn't want to go there with less than a 300WM but that's just me. The problem is I can't go out and shoot half the day with a 300WM without needing shoulder surgery the next day, but I can with a 308. It's a lot of fun to shoot and practice with. Just more food for thought.

Also you can always consider the custom arena for a nice rifle. GA Precision makes a nice 30-06 "hunting" rifle using a Rem 700 action that has all that you are looking for.

adrock1978 · Feb 23, 2011

RussMo said:
Exactly what MODEL are you after??? I'm thinking your comparing apples and oranges. What I mean is on the tactical side of the house the Military and cops use the .308 due to MAN STOPPING power and accuracy. When the ranges became future out they stepped up to .300 WM and now they use the .338 Lapua. These are man stoppers. If this is what your after in the long run then your options are what they are. If you want a HUNTING RIFLE that is different. I'm going over to Remingtons web site to look at it. One more thing is I use to build National Match rifles ie M-14 , M-21, M-40s for the National Guard Marksman and match shooters. Took Honor Grad at the Rifle/Pistol coarse back in Jan/Feb 1986.I do know a little about .308, .300WM, Lapua came around after I was gone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Been awhile since I looked at Remington anything. Man looks like they have moved to the Tac arena in a lot of styles and reduced there hunting rifles. You are limited if that's your choice of rifle. Now I think it was Rat Fink that said Savage is out there and I know there good as well. I know for a fact that the Mossberg 4X4s are selling real good up here and they have freefloaters (barrel), synthetic stocks etc etc. and in -06. Synthetic stocks are best if your going into a rainy enviroment and/or where you can encounter freeze/rain/snow mix. I promise you up here I've been out in the snow on July 4th at a little higher elevations. You are just going to have to decide whar will cover your widest range of uses, or you will need a minimum of two guns to span what you want. I say get two, one being a .308 Tac for whatever and medium game, and then upgrade to a .338WM for anything Elk and above.

No... a hunting rifle is what I'm after. Although unecessary, I thought going with a freefloat barrel would be a bonus. They just all happen to be Tac models in .308. So I guess i'll get something in a synth. Stock chamberd for 30-06. and call it a day. Sounds like the most versatile option based on what i'm hearing.

tao_m said:
Good to see you Russ! Hey like I told you before, if i ever make it to Alaska I'm hanging out with you brother!!!!

Amen to that.

high desert · Feb 23, 2011

Wow. This is like the which "one knife to do it all" Don't we all own more than one?

RussMo · Feb 23, 2011

adrock1978 said:
No... a hunting rifle is what I'm after. Although unecessary, I thought going with a freefloat barrel would be a bonus. They just all happen to be Tac models in .308. So I guess i'll get something in a synth. Stock chamberd for 30-06. and call it a day. Sounds like the most versatile option based on what i'm hearing.

Amen to that.

Door is open to you as well Brother, in fact to all my Bro's here and Lady friends as well!!! Got a 600 yard range a few miles away and we can get some long range plunking in before your hunt!!!

shunsui · Feb 23, 2011

If you pick up a Remington Model 700 it might be prudent to pick up one made with their X-Mark Pro Trigger system that they started manufacturing in 2006.

Issues with the prior trigger design lead them to redesign it, but Remington still denies there's any problem with the old one AFAIK. I think both versions are still available out there.

According to Walker, the designer of the original trigger mechanism, if a certain part was manufactured out of spec, you could have a problem. He had a QC inspection in place to make sure that didn't happen while he was at the company. He said "some dummies" dropped the inspection after he left the company in 1975.

coedse · Feb 24, 2011

Lots of great info in this thread and I only have one thing to add. Try to be weight conscious with your new hunting rifle. I own a Remington 700 Sendero w/ a 6 X 20 Leupold and that rig weights over 11 lbs.
My Remington Model 7 with a 1.5 X 6 Nikon Monarch gold only weights 7lbs 11 oz. Both have steel rings and mounts.
That 3 ½ pound difference feels like 15 pounds after 10 hours of up and down mountain hunting! Especially in higher altitudes. You’ll pay a price in higher recoil, but for a hunting rifle, I'll take the lighter weight any day.

adrock1978 · Feb 24, 2011

high desert said:
Wow. This is like the which "one knife to do it all" Don't we all own more than one?

Yeah yeah... but I also have two kids under 4 so this will be the last rifle of its kind ($$$) for 3-5 year. And if it does everything I need, I'd rather only have 1 anyway.

shunsui said:
If you pick up a Remington Model 700 it might be prudent to pick up one made with their X-Mark Pro Trigger system that they started manufacturing in 2006.

Issues with the prior trigger design lead them to redesign it, but Remington still denies there's any problem with the old one AFAIK. I think both versions are still available out there.

According to Walker, the designer of the original trigger mechanism, if a certain part was manufactured out of spec, you could have a problem. He had a QC inspection in place to make sure that didn't happen while he was at the company. He said "some dummies" dropped the inspection after he left the company in 1975.

I heard this. I think most current models list the xmark trigger now.

coedse said:
Lots of great info in this thread and I only have one thing to add. Try to be weight conscious with your new hunting rifle. I own a Remington 700 Sendero w/ a 6 X 20 Leupold and that rig weights over 11 lbs.
My Remington Model 7 with a 1.5 X 6 Nikon Monarch gold only weights 7lbs 11 oz. Both have steel rings and mounts.
That 3 ½ pound difference feels like 15 pounds after 10 hours of up and down mountain hunting! Especially in higher altitudes. Youll pay a price in higher recoil, but for a hunting rifle, I'll take the lighter weight any day.

Nice! This thread keeps getting better.

PeterPHWS · Feb 24, 2011

Answering your queries Adrock ... firstly all Remington 700's have free floating barrels ... some "info" on the site may highlight this feature on certain models and on others it is silent ... but if you look at the owners manual and the blown out diagram on assembly part numbers you will see that on all models the barrel floats freely from the action and you would be able to get a dollar bill and fold it over the barrel and run it down to the action ... do this on the model you are interested in before buying though to test and make sure the stock has not warped or been attached out of true ... if the bill catches on the side of the stock reject that rifle and ask them to order another ... they ARE meant to have free floating barrels and the stock should not be touching the barrel ...

The next thing is the difference between .308 and .30-06 ... in the 700 Remington use a 1 in 10 twist in a 30-06 and 1 in 12 twist for the hunting models in .308 and 1 in 10 twist for some of their tactical models in .308.

The twist rate determines the way the barrel is able to stabalise bullets ... the lower the twist number the faster the twist ... so 1-10 is faster than 1-12 meaning it turns a full twist every 10 inches of barrel as opposed to 12 inches ... so it spins the bullets faster and heavier bullets need to be spinned quicker to stabalise them as they usually are longer given that the calibre is a constant ...

Some calibres with smaller diameter also use very long bullets so have an even faster twist ... an example is a 6.5 mm calibre which usually has 1 in 8 ...

So in most hunting models the 30-06 will handle heavier bullets better ... by heavier I mean 180 grains plus ... going up to 240 grains ... the sort of weight you would want for large game ...

That's not to say a 30-06 in 1-10 will not handle lighter bullets if you wanted to use them ... in theory ballistians talk of faster twists on lighter bullets which may not need such a fast twist as causing them to "over spin" and turn slightly "nose up" the effect being called "surfing" ... but this is "theory" only and in a 1-10 twist a 30-06 shoots lighter bullets just as well as a 1-12 twist barrel ... or put it another way ... if the barrel is a good one it will ... Remington 700's vary a great deal on what the barrel will do ... some are better than others and it is a bit of a lucky dip ... but all are generally good enough and should certainly be adequate for hunting ... tweaking a load for an individual rifle is all it takes .... if you don't re-load then all you need to do is try a few different ammo makes until you find what works best ...

The length of action is relevant only on issues of dangerous game in a hunting rifle ... the Remington is a "push" bolt/magazine pick up ... the longer the action/bullet the more likely a jam occurs when cycling fast for a follow up shot ... that is why African dangerous game rifles are usually preferred with a Mauser bolt which picks up the round on the rear stroke and loads it into the barrel locked into the bolt face so it is perfectly straight and lined up ... the Remington slides the round up the ramp so smaller is better ... but the 30-06 is at the small end of the long action rounds and usually chambers just as well as the .308 if you have a practised and smooth bolt cycle technique ...

Rigidity of the action is only going to be an issue in top end target shooting ... not relevant for hunting ...

What is relevant for hunting though when choosing a model is weight and whether you go for a magazine or a drop floor plate model .... my advice is go for a magazine model as when it is cold and you work in gloves unloading a magazine is far better than dropping out the floor plate ... this usually ends up with dropped rounds in the snow and when wet rounds can cause chamber pressure risks from the water instantly evaporating with the explosion of the powder ... a magazine therefore works much better for me ... and weight wise ... if you are able to have a light rifle it is a bonus on a long day ... recoil is not an issue in 30-06 if the rifle fits well ... fit is more important than weight ...

The length of pull on a 700 is really too short for most blokes ... they go for an "average" which includes women sizes ... most guys are on a 14 inch plus L.O.P. ... the 700 is about 13.5 inches .... look to see if you can order one with recoil pad spacers added to make your ideal L.O.P. ... they should be able to do this or if ordering from a good gun shop they should do that for you to get the deal ... if they don't know how to measure your L.O.P. walk away and try elsewhere ...

Personally I would consider an incline rail as an addition to the action to put the scope on ... it tightens up the action and there are loads to pick from .... accessories for the 700 are one of it's perks ... Badger do a good one ... and then you can use military picatinny rings to really lock in the scope ... bashing the scope when carrying the rifle is one of the most common reasons for flunking a shot when hunting ... so a strong set of scope rings makes sense ... a 20 minute of angle rail will also make the most of using the 30-06 out to it's full range capability ... handy if you want to use lighter bullets and do a bit of varmint shooting ... the new 155 grain Sierra VLD match bullets work really well here ... and getting into re-loading will help too ... but if you buy well at the start ... all this is open to you to explore later ...

Triggers can be easily changed out too if you want to at a later date ... but match triggers are not really needed on hunting rifles ...

Let us know which 30-06 model you were thinking of ... then a more accurate bit of help can be given ... and definately go for a .30-06 over the .308 for Alaska as the average bullet weight you will need will definately favour a 1-10 twist :thumbup: