440C or 12C27

Joined
Jul 18, 2001
Messages
87
Is the blade steel in the BM 42 440c or 12c27? I thought it was 12c27? Anybody have any ideas why BM changed for the 43 and 47. Do you guys and gals consider it an upgrade or step down?
Also, how does the 43 compare to the 42? I just looked at a 43 and really like the clip point (I think thats the right model).
 
Dragon2 is right. BM42 uses 12C27, 43 and 47 uses 440C.
It is definitely a step down for quality, but I suppose Benchmade has predicted everything when changing their balisong line into 440C.

I think these are the reasons :

1. 440C is cheaper than 12C27, we are talking about millions of knives, not just several pieces here.

2. 440C is easier to work with, many knife collectors have opinions that 440C is soft steel. Easier to work with means less power/input needed means less cost. (Less production cost than 42, about the same price as the 42 ---> more profit)

3. When Benchmade produces 43 and 47, they don't really care what the material is. They only care about the styles 'balisong'. As long as it is flippable, it is good. They are selling the style 'balisong' and new 'blade design'.

I hope I helped.

Joe
 
It might be more accurately termed a step sideways, than a step down.
 
In my experience, it is a step sideways. 12c27 takes one of the sharpest edges Ive seen in a stainless. I have done no cutting tests for edge holding, but a friend of mine had an old benchmade bali and it held up for a couple of years cutting cardboard at a Sams Club. When I saw it again, it was dull, but no damage, and there were still sharp spots on the blade.
 
However, I have also had good experiences w/ 440c. It doesnt rust as easily as some other stainless. It holds an edge for quite a while, is common, ie readily available, takes a mirror finish, and takes a sharp edge. Maybe some tests are in order. I'll get back as soon as I find some cardboard and finish cutting it.
 
Yes, it is more stain proof compared to other stainless steel.
440 itself is already stainless, and 'c' refers to an added content of chromoium. So, it's basically stainless steel with more chromium content. That's also why it can be polished into mirror polish easily.

I had some unpleasant experiences with 440C. I did some test cutting using rope, and 440c was the first one to get dull.

I don't know if it's just me.

Joe
 
Does anyone know what steel was used in the older PC models? I have a PC68 that is the sharpest of all my balis, and it's held that edge since I got it.

Thanks in advance...;)
 
My experience wityh 12Cyaddayadda has not been good. Have dropped my 42 (in 12C) and my Kershaw Blackout (in 440A) from similar altitudes, accidentally, of course, both landing on the tip. The 42 chipped, the Kershaw did not. I've had the Kershaw twice as long as the 42, it has been used 10 times more frequently than the 42, yet the 42 has needed sharpening 4 times as often as the Kershaw. The blade geometry would have a significant effect on the impact damage, but wouldn't on two similarly hardened blades sharpened to the same angle.

I've heard that Ka-Bar had some problems with edge retention in 12C27 as well - used in their "Next Generation" line.

From what I keep hearing, it seems my experiences with 12C are unusual, but it's enough to steer me toward other steels. When your take-out food makes you ill, you don't order from the same menu again.
 
Originally posted by J. Jurianto
Yes, it is more stain proof compared to other stainless steel.
440 itself is already stainless, and 'c' refers to an added content of chromoium.
Joe

Actually the "C" is for extra carbon :). But you are right, 440C it's pretty stain proof compared to other stainless steels. 440C and 12C27 are both pretty good steels IMO.
 
Here's some of my observations on the steel issue...

First...I must clarify that I don't 'collect' balis, though I now own 4 of them, second I don't play with 'em, and I carry one for one reason only, to use if necessary as a 'last chance' SD piece.

I have some experience in that area, having spent a number of my earlier years in situations that I would today avoid at all costs, that was then, this is now. I have seen first hand, blades used in HTH bar brawls and clashes between others in the same lifestyle that I once lived.

If, for instance, one might encounter a large, enraged, drunk cowboy, in a parking lot asskicking contest at 2:30am, and he's much more then you can handle, and even though you've fought your best fight, he's obviously bigger, and meaner, and he says he's gonna snap your neck, and can likely do it, that's the time the ol' 110 Buck comes out and he gets shanked in a likely low area, ('cause you don't want to kill him), just stop the BS.

My recent purchace of a 42blk, was made even though I'd never seen or handled one, I just believed and bought into all the hype that I've seen here in the last few months, that BM was All There Is with balis. It is indeed pretty, nicely mfg'ed, a real show n' tell piece. But would I trust it in a situation as discribed above? No Way In Hell.

I can place the BM's pointy 3rd of the blade between my thumb and forefingers of my two hands, and actually apply some minor pressure, and watch this blade flex. Yes it's sharp, but it doesn't have near enough thickness to suit me. If you hit bone, and likely you will if you go for the thigh, or even a shoulder or arm bone, this thing is likely to break, and what you pull back is at that point a very sharp overpriced box cutter, which you may as well have started with. Does it have the weight and stiffness to get through a breast bone, if you have to go there?, I doubt it. It will sure cut, but again so will an Exacto.

I will continue to carry the (repinned) POS Jag that y'all seem to love to hate, and know that should it ever be brought to bear, that it'll do what it's supposed to do and likely remain in one piece for a second strike if necessary. The blades on both of the Jags I own are much more solid than the 42's is. And they are also sharp enough to shave hair.

I ordered my first Jag about 6-7 months ago. Total cost delived to my door, about 20 bux...the 42 come about one month back, total cost almost 120 bux...I'm still very happy with the Jag, not at all that impressed with the BM.

If you're going to make a knife that costs that much, it'd better be able to do what it's really designed to do. To quote Bro' Ocyrus, I want "one you can lift 'em off the floor with", if necessary. The 42 is way to fragile to even consider that.

As an added thought, I have learned to open and close my balis, very quickly and safely, with either hand, never taped a blade, and have never yet had a serious cut of any kind. So I guess that makes me a wannabe, unlike all you scarred and bleeding vets...but then I've practiced quickdraws and snapshots for years with my pistols, and never yet shot a hole in myself either. Some of you might ought to think about looking at another hobby.

Regards,
Phil

Cloaking Device: Reactivated
Lurk Mode: On
 
To be honest I'm happy with both. I've only seen the 12C27 in the 42's and it functions well in my 42as. I've one the other hand seen and used the 440 series (mostly 440C) numerous times. For middle grade stainless these blades function exceptionly well I use mine (42as and 43) all the time.

Always remember it could be worse...it could be 420.
 
christ UnclePhilthy , if u are that worried about having to use your knife in a combat situation maybe you better look into finding a new neighborhood.

Hey, handgrenades have good stopping power, medium to long range, and only cost a bit more than a 42...mabye u should upgrade your arsenal.

Bazookas also work well, but dont have quite the same stealth or concealment ability.
 
If you're going to make a knife that costs that much, it'd better be able to do what it's really designed to do.

Well, the balisong is made to be flipped and manipulated, I don't think BM sat around and thought "Hmmm, how many times can this cut to the bone without breaking?" If you want a knife for SD then a balisong wasn't designed for it, though people have created arts that facilitate the design of the balisong for SD (ie closed: loaded fist, partial open: flail, open: BG deterrent) BM designed it for manipulating.

If you are that afraid that you will get the crap kicked out of you that you have to stab someone than buy a couple cases of beer and stay at home, either that or move somewhere else.:rolleyes:

:)
 
Phil,
Your comments disturb me. I have stated, elsewhere on the forums, that the purchase of my 42 was partially for SD. It replaced my rarely carried safekeeper 5" model. So far my tests indicate that the 42 will penetrate like a needle in Soft material. I may have to try some harder material and go back to my safekeeper until I convince myself the 42 can take it. Maybe I'll get a chance at the knife use seminar this weekend.:D
 
I forgot this earlier:

Laci Szabo makes knifes that are great for SD, maybe you would like the knife "The Disembowler" (actually "El Saca Trippas" or "The Intestine Extractor"). His knives have great ergonomics and the function and form is for defense.
 
Wow!!! Well..., maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I've heard any guys on here really contemplating hacking people up with their shiney new Benchmade Balisong.

Heck.., if you're and old "rompin'-stompin'" bar-brawl vet, with a myriad of experience in combative situations.., it should be fairly obvious that most of the guys on here swing Balisongs for "fun", ARE NOT trained knife-fighters, and don't pretend to be. Maybe I missed some of the context clues along the way, but I've never really heard guys spit out a bunch of "specs" about lifting people off the floor and splitting manubrial cartilage with the new BM Balisongs.

I agree with some of what you said, but I guess the "style" was so confrontational and demeaning towards those of us that happen to like the darn things that it sort of blurred the content.

By the way.., it doesn't make anyone a "wanna-be" to just master a few basic quick openings, and I also don't think anyone ever said much about that either (except you). :rolleyes: Frankly, that's all you need to defend yourself with a Balisong (or any knife).

Psssssst.... :cool: ..if you want a Balisong that does a good double as your Buck 110 and will "lift someone off the floor"...you can probably buy a "Cho-No-Shi 1200"...(Compass Industries)...from one of the guys on here. If you can lift your victim :confused: .., it'll hang in there with ya. ;)

Next time you write -be nice- :p ..it won't ruin your day!



"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
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