Wow, this really complicates things.
koldgold, most everything you said is incorrect. I will take the time to sort it out for future collectors who see this thread. Posting incorrect information really muddies the waters. Please check and double-check before posting things as fact. Posting source materials is always good too.
The 858OT, was not listed in the Jan 1979 Price list! or before that time.
So, did the Schrade "858OT Lumberjack" started life in the middle of 1979?
The 858OT (no sheath) or 858OTS (with sheath) first appeared in 1978 pricelist and catalog. It was then listed in every following catalog and pricelist up to and including 1986. In 1986 it was only available with sheath (858OTS).
1978 catalog and pricelist:
1979 catalog and pricelist:
In the March 1979 Schrade Almanac, Schrade listed,Two blade steels used in their knives.
A High Carbon Tool Steel and Schrade+
"A specially developed super hard blade steel, that will not stain or rust."
Schrade had been using stainless steel, for many years, and my guess is that + steel was not the same old stainless steel.
The "High Carbon Tool Steel" was 1095. Schrade started calling their stainless "Schrade+" steel to imply they used something unique to them (which was never true but you bought into it) and so they could change their choice of stainless whenever they liked and not have to tell anyone. "Schrade+" steel was 440A, 440C and 420HC at different times in their history. I do not know whether or not other stainless steel formulations were used during the Schrade Cut Co years.
The "858OT", is listed in Schrade's price list for the first time as "New", in Jan 1980.
First listed in 1978 not 1980 (see 1978 and 1979 catalogs and pricelists posted above).
Jan 1980 pricelist
does not say anything about the 858OT being "New":
The Flyer for the 858OT states:"High Carbon Tool Steel."
The flyers
do not specifically say the 858OT is "High Carbon Tool Steel." At the top of the page there is a general description of
all the knives in the Old Timer line. It describes them
all as "High Carbon Tool Steel."
1982 flyer (
implies that 858OT is 1095 carbon):
1982 catalog (definitively states 858OT is a Schrade+ stainless knife):
I maintain that the 858OT and 51OT were always stainless regardless of what it said at the top of those Old Timer Flyers.
Note that the flyers and the catalogs
do not match steel-wise from 1982 forward. The top of every Old Timer flyer
implies that the 858OT had 1095 carbon steel blades. Starting in 1982 the catalogs definitively state it is actually a Schrade+ stainless knife. The flyers are proven to be incorrect from 1982 through 1986 (they all imply a 1095 carbon knife when catalog states Schrade+).
It looks like I will have to test one of my mint 858OTs to see.... Ken
Has anyone seen an 858OT, with a rusty blade ?
Full circle to where I started. I looked at
hundreds of these knives on Worthpoint and ebay. Some were stamped "Schrade" and some "Schrade+". None of them have any patina at all. Stainless (steel that will stain less) will rust under extreme conditions but will not develop a patina.
I too would like to see any example of an 858OT with a proven 1095 blade (as in someone stuck it in an apple and a patina developed). Until I see someone post a pic of a 858OT with a patina I am staying pretty convinced that the 858OT was always made with stainless blades.
What does a 1095 patina look like?
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/old-timer-6ot-and-7ot.1756502/#post-20111628