A learning to Forge Question about "Alligators"

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DaQo'tah Forge

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I was reading in this months "BLADE" mag. about some girls who each get to try their hands at forging a blade. It was a very good article, but one question came to me as I read the story.

In one comment, the writer of the BLADE article says that her blade was not very good looking when she had finished forging it. She said that the tip of the blade had an "alligator" mouth, or looked like carp lips...

Now I also seem to end up with this same problem where my blade tips have this bunched-up look to them at the tip.
In the BLADE article the writer says that with practice, this ,Alligator mouth look would be corrected..

My question is-, How do I forge a blade to get rid of the "Alligator" mouth look of the tip?
 
if its what i'm thinking of, then to solve you would need to grind the corners off of the end of the stock thats going to be the tip. so basically instead of being square the end for the tip is rounded off. then you can start to forge the blade to shape
 
thats what you do?

that sounds like cheating....LOL

In the BLADE artical it sure read like there was some way to forge the tip without having the two tips bunch-up and look like lips...

But on the other hand.....just cutting off the parts I dont like would speed things up for me....
 
Tip of the Day...bird's beak

You can pre-shape the tip of the blade to a degree on the grinder if necessary. Most folks do. It'll save a heat or two or three.

If you don't want to do that then with your steel on its edge, pick it up where one "corner" of the stock is on the anvil at about a 45 degree angle and wail on the other corner. Turn it over on the corner you just wailed on and wail again. :D
 
If it's what I'm thinking it is (I read that one too)... I use an even amount of blows on the sides of the tip as the top & bottom (spine & edge) sides. It's like truing up a billet between the mechanical hammer and heats. This keeps everything very even for me with no "puckering".
 
forging_tips.gif


The problem you described is one of the very first things we learn to overcome or control in forging a blade. In forging the tip from a squared off piece, the corners have a tendency to fold over on themselves as seen in Figure 1. If you continue to hammer away you will end up with something like image number 3 in Figure one. It goes by many names such as bird beak, bird mouth, fish mouth, and alligator mouth.

There are numerous ways to avoid the problem. One way is shown in Figure 2. Remove the sharp corners by hammering at an angle as in image number 1, then smooth things out as in image number two, then draw out the tip.

You can also grind off the corners or file off the corners. All these are preps or preforms to help avoid the problem.

If the "mouth" starts to form, just lay the bar on the anvil with the tip just over the edge of the anvil. Lock your hand against your hip to secure the bar. Lean over the anvil, and hammer right into the tip. In other words, instead of hammering downward, hammer towards your belly. That's why you need the secure grip I mentioned. This will remove the "mouth", and you can continue shaping the tip.
 
primos...


Excellent answer!

That's really a great answer because it goes right to the heart of the problem I have been having, and shows me a step-by-step way to correct my problem.

I cant wait for the morning when I will fire up my forge and have a try at it using this new way to hit the steel into a good point.
__________________-

I was just looking at your drawings showing the way to do the knife tip, when it dawned on me that I sure wish that the other guys who make 'How-To' tutorials and WebPages could do as you have shown and post something that is aimed at truly helping a guy who really does not understand something important.

I have a problem with a few of the knife makers out there who have tried to create teaching tutorials... Their hearts are in the spot, but, The fact is that many tutorials are just not able to help teach people who need to learn.

I have been seeking to visit every tutorial I can find on how to forge a blade, and I think the real problem I have found is a lack of photos that actually help us understand the text. It's like some photos don't have a thing to do with the text at all.

I believe that if a expert knife maker has went to the trouble to post on the topic of knife making, then he should post with the idea of helping a guy who knows little about the topic... I think that if you are trying to help others understand how to forge a knife then you should have photos that clearly advance 'step-by-step' along with the text, and not just have a photo of a finished and buffed knife tossed in at the end of four pages of text . I would love to find a step-by-step tutorial that posts things based on the idea of helping the clueless

Such a website that does not just tell you, 'Next buff the knife' but actually shows you how to buff the knife, how to hold the blade, how to move the blade...
 
DaQo'tah
Good point! I tried to convey the exact same thing that Terry did but he did a much better job than I did. I am not eloquent by any means but the intent is there.

Most everyone that contributes to the site is genuinely trying to help. But like me, just don't have a way with words that some other folks do. What happens there is that it probably raises more questions than answers the original question.

After all, I am just "some guy from Texas" with a Louisiana education.

Craig
 
CL W


You and Terry did great, I think what Im searching for is a website where one of the big time knife makers shows how he does stuff, so that I can see and read about it.

I did get a book for my birthday on how to make knives , but the photos are so dark and of such poor quality, that at times I dont have any idea what they are showing.

I just keep thinking that with the computers out in today's world, and the computer cameras that can show a sharp image of a human hair, that there should be a bunch of websites where a step-by-step system of forging a blade is given.


However,,,due to a lack of such sites, or perhaps my yet to find them, I have come to Thank God for this Blade Forum. Because here when I have a question about something I can just post it, and BANG get my questions answered from many different points of view.

Thanks again,,,I see the sun is up,,,time to head on out into the snow and try my hand at the different way i should hold the steel as I hit the point...
 
I just want to thank Terry, for his response. Everytime you post it is informative, and very well thought out. You are an excellent teacher, and resource for the rest of us who are not as experienced.
Guys like you make this such a great place to hang out.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
I understand what you're getting at - it is the nature of the beast (rather than a failing on the part of the student or the teacher) to assume that people have a particular knowledge base. With the web, books, and other indirect media, a tutorial is being delivered to an audience the author is unlikely to meet even a small fraction of. With classroom-based or one-to-one training, it is a comparitive doddle to find out how much your students know at the start, and tailor the training accordingly.

Naturally, this doesn't help you much :)

There are some very good DVDs around on knifemaking, which can clear up a lot of the grey areas - you might not see why something is being done on the first pass, but that it is being done. I've got Gene Osborne's excellent DVDs on cable damascus, and Wayne Goddard's DVD (VHS may be an option for you too, ain't for me, so I can only comment on the DVDs).

Over the past year, I took a couple of courses with a local blacksmith (which is underselling him somewhat, he's an FWCB) - this clarified a lot of basic stuff, and meant I could apply the techniques to other areas that were, shall we say, more directly in my line of interest. Now that I've gone through the fun of building a couple of forges, a lot more of the comments I see from smiths mean more, quite simply because I have the context to work from.

Use every available source for learning, and even though it might not be bladesmithing, see what you can pinch and reuse.

BTW - Terry's diagram an exceedingly eloquent explanation of the problem and the solution. I think I know which article you were talking about, and I have to admit I was puzzled as to what the expression meant...

Peter
 
Im in the house now, warming up and haveing a bit of lunch,,and I just wanted to say that the forging went well this time,,I did that trick of smashing the steel back at the tip and it worked like a charm this time,,,no sign of the "Alligator"

I have been reading all the comments and advice...and will try to remember what i have learned today.
 
DaQo'Ta
I thought that Terry was a big name maker, at least I always thought he was. He has helped me in his tutorials that he has on his web site.
I learned long ago to listen and watch the ones that perform and produce a level of quality that I would like to reach. Since every one has different ways to reach the same goal, you take what information you need and arrange it make it work for you. Whether you go for performance or pretty, there are steps for both and somethimes they overlap all the way.
I tried knife making for about 5 years before I found others to help and then in 97 I found a bunch of folks to help. The only thing is you have to go where they can help, reading took me a long time to understand and was no where near as effective as a live teacher and hands on demonstrations.
You are probably doing a lot better than I did when I started because of the internet. The net has helped a lot but it is still reading material. Just don't give up because you don't think you are learning fast enough and have a problem at times undeerstanding what you read. I found out that to read, do, read, do, and finally each time I would understand a little more after doing. :) It worked for me.
 
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